Friday, August 8, 2008

Roy Masters v. Walter Martin

This is interesting. Both are arch-conservative theologians in the "Judeo-Christian" tradition. Martin is an uber-orthodox Christian. And Masters can sound like one but believes in all sorts of things which evangelicals consider cultic and heretical. In other words, Masters' Foundation For Human Understanding is in the same box as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Masters rejects the Trinity and intimates that Trinitarians aren't saved.

Note: I don't follow either of their creeds. Just makes for interesting discussion between historic orthodox Christianity and one of the new fangled forms of exotic religions that has grown out of the Judeo-Christian tradition and gets termed a "cult" for its rejection of orthodoxy. Welcome to American Protestantism.

Normally I wouldn't post something like this to American Creation, but my other blogs. However, I think this tangentially relates to the issue of Christianity & the American Founding because it relates to such issues as how movements within Founding American Protestantism rejected orthodoxy (indeed Masters, like some of America's Founders is a biblical "unitarian"). And what is true Christianity what is not?


Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting this. There's a visceral disconnect between the two men, with Martin valiantly trying to hold the line on Protestant values. However, Masters has a way of taking control very quickly because he asserts himself with utter confidence and audacity of his convictions, the substance therein does fly in the face of the Trinity doctrine. It's hard for Martin to get his bearing because Masters is, in his own way, demanding that so many terms be redefined before the conversation can actually move on.

I like the spirit of Master's as a free-thinker. I think the problem here is too much dualism, if you will. But I think these guys GO TOGETHER, in spite of the friction. In other words, people who are academic preserve the traditions of religion and those who have intuitive skills influence the evolution of understanding. They are respective strands of historical conservation and innovation which, through balanced tension, compliment each other and keep each other on their toes.

Likewise, with contemporary politics, we don't have healthy public debate like this and the danger is that dualism stops being mutually informative and instead becomes white-hot and destructive. The respective sides just want to vanquish each other. I miss good debate done with passion AND respect and that's what we have here.

Linda Method said...

I know this is an old posting, but to me it's very relevant. I was an avid follower of Roy Masters in the 1980's, now I am an avid critic of him. He has worked very hard in the last 2 decades to align himself with mainstream Christianity as a way to stave off all the accusations of being a cult leader. By the way, it's not the teachings that make a cult.....the hallmarks of a cult can be whittled down to 2: 1) Deception used to 'recruit' and 2) Mind control being used to 'keep' the 'recruit.' What I find so distasteful about Masters is the way he manipulates. He actually has very little respect for the Bible....hence his mention during the debate of taking it to the toilet and using it in a disgusting way. Since then I believe Roy has realized the hypnotic power of the Bible and now uses it as a reference point to give credence to his teachings. What is really hilarious is the same Bible that he quotes here and there to make himself sound righteous is the one that refutes a great many of his teachings. A good Bible scholar who also had a lot of first-hand knowledge of Roy's theology could very neatly and tidily tie his rhetoric up in knots.

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

Those that "accuse" Roy Masters of "Cult" or brainwashing, etc....are the "Bitter Souls" that just can't accept the "Truth" that Roy speaks daily! As it applies to "All" of us, and those of us seeking the Truth, and betterment of ourselves, trying to sin no more, we hear, understand, and relate to this Truth....But those that don't want to muster the Courage to Change, Can't stand hearing the Truth as it relates to themselves, and resort to slander, name calling, false accusations, etc....that makes them feel better about themselves, and their demoralized behaviors.

Anonymous said...

I thoroughly enjoyed listening again, over many years, the debate between Roy Masters
and the Pharisee of our time Mr. Martin both of whom have passed on to be judged by YHWH.
If you cannot see and hear the clarity espoused by Mr. Masters and the buffoonery of Walter
Martin then you have eyes but cannot see and you have ears but cannot hear (understand), so suffer
On your journey silently.

Anonymous said...


What a manipulative post you have displayed. Are you sure you are not becoming the thing that you hate?

Don’t throw your pearls before swine!

PeaceByJesus said...

No amount of sophistry can explain away the fact that while Masters attempted to pass himself off as a Christian, he attacked the very faith that denoted first century believers to whom that title was first applied. While many of his statements have been expunged from the Internet, he did indeed teach such things as documented here: