Wednesday, May 11, 2016

Sandefur: "The Greeks and America's Founding Fathers"

From Timothy Sandefur here. I know the Founders tended to speak highly of Aristotle. And also that the Stoic Roman influence was much stronger than the Greek. But still, it is interesting to understand the qualified extent of the Greek influence.

6 comments:

Tom Van Dyke said...

It's interesting to contrast Washington the stoic with Jefferson the epicurean, the latter to whom I ascribe not much in the way of virtue--he didn't fight the Revolution, made his slave his mistress, freed nobody except a few blood relatives [and left many others in bondage] and wasn't a particularly loyal friend to John Adams or to Washington as his Secretary of State.

This is rather the opposite of the magnanimous GWash:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/epicur/#SH5d

d. The Virtues

Epicurus' hedonism was widely denounced in the ancient world as undermining traditional morality. Epicurus, however, insists that courage, moderation, and the other virtues are needed in order to attain happiness. However, the virtues for Epicurus are all purely instrumental goods--that is, they are valuable solely for the sake of the happiness that they can bring oneself, not for their own sake. Epicurus says that all of the virtues are ultimately forms of prudence, of calculating what is in one's own best interest. In this, Epicurus goes against the majority of Greek ethical theorists, such as the Stoics, who identify happiness with virtue, and Aristotle, who identifies happiness with a life of virtuous activity.

jimmiraybob said...

Washington was not a disciple of Stoicism, per se, although he may have adopted a stoic influence via Cicero. He was/is called stoic because of his demeanor.

Jefferson called himself an Epicurean but qualified it with: “in the sense that…”

But, when it comes to morality, Jefferson cited Jesus: “…Jesus of Nazareth…the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man…” And, of course, lots of slave traders and holders and slave rapers and slave beaters were profoundly Christian and used the Bible for justification. Awkward.

Jonathan Rowe said...

GW and a whole lot of others were also influenced by the play Cato. They incorporated Stoicism into their philosophy of life and religion much as Aquinas incorporated Aristotle.

Someone like Patrick Henry, though, didn't see any inconsistency. "Give me liberty or give me death," (in the overall context of glorifying a suicide) comes from Cato not the Bible or Christianity.

Mrs. Webfoot said...


Anonymous jimmiraybob:
, when it comes to morality, Jefferson cited Jesus: “…Jesus of Nazareth…the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man…” And, of course, lots of slave traders and holders and slave rapers and slave beaters were profoundly Christian and used the Bible for justification. Awkward.>>>>

Is your point then, that Jefferson gets a pass because just like some who called themselves Christians, he traded, raped, and beat slaves?

jimmiraybob said...

"Is your point then, that Jefferson gets a pass because just like some who called themselves Christians, he traded, raped, and beat slaves?"

Although Tom will vilify me as a leftist liberal infidel, etc., etc., which I don't find offensive, I don't adhere to the stereotypical narrative that the FFs were just old white slave holding hypocrite bastards with nothing to offer the present. That being said, no, my point is that it's complex. Even GW is cited for being a fairly strict (euphemism) slave master.

Many, and I include Jefferson and GW, of the founders and framers derived morals and ethics by evaluating and incorporating strands from ancient Greek and Roman sources, as well as Medieval to modern adaptations of ancient sources, as well as Christian and other religious sources*. Of course, many adhered quite closely to more orthodox strands of Christianity and derived there morals and ethics therein. And all of them were products of being human and living in their time. There is no clear divide.

And to demean Jefferson on slave holding grounds and invoke the morality and virtue of Washington (and those placed at the highest rungs of Christian morality) as a shiny beacon is not consistent. That and the fact that many a certifiable Christian of the late 18th century held to what we now define as immoral practices is all I am pointing out.

If anything, Jefferson and GW should be compared on the issue of slavery to Thomas Paine a vociferous advocate against slavery, a founding member of the first abolitionist society in Philadelphia, and a vociferous advocate of liberty including freedom of conscience and freedom of speech. Can we call Paine a virtuous and moral man ahead of his times? A lot of his contemporaries considered him a spokesman for the devil. Go figure. Complicated.

*And, as Jon points out, GW was influenced by Addison’s play Cato, A Tragedy that celebrated Cato the Younger, a Roman Stoic, as a martyr to the republican cause.

Tom Van Dyke said...

Actually, I was speaking of the role of virtue. I don't think Jefferson's was the majority view and IMO there was little in his life to evidence his, for virtue requires action, not just flowery talk. I see a huge difference between Washington being strict with slaves and Jefferson leaving blood relatives in slavery after his death while GWash freed his. Slavery is merely one illustration of what I consider Jefferson's lack of redeeming qualities, of virtue.

FTR: The Aristotelian and Stoic views are far more congenial to Christianity, and indeed, unlike Epicurus, were subsumed into Christian thought. For those interested:

https://www3.nd.edu/~maritain/jmc/etext/jmoral04.htm