Friday, April 17, 2020

Hall Reponds To Frazer

Mark David Hall has responded to Gregg Frazer's latest comment on Hall's new book.
Gregg writes "[Mark] never defines what 'Christian' is and never defines what 'founding' is." 
From Did America Have a Christian Founding?:
"By 'orthodox' [Christianity] I mean that they adhered to fundamental Christian doctrines as articulated in the Apostles’ or Nicene Creeds" (164). 
In the book's introduction, I consider three possible answers to the question "when was America founded?" and conclude: 
"If one is to understand American history, it is important to have a proper appreciation for the nation’s Christian colonial roots. Few serious scholars deny that the early colonists were committed Christians, whose constitutions, laws, and practices reflected the influence of their faith (especially in New England). But the historical debate becomes far more heated with respect to Christianity’s role in the War of Independence and the establishment of the constitutional order under which our nation still operates. For this reason, in this book, I focus almost exclusively on the late eighteenth century." (XXV) 
Finally, and once again, the whole point of the chapter "The Myth of the Founders' Deism" is to demolish the common claim that most or many of the founders were deists. Attacking these claims does not require me to prove that they hold any other religious views, and certainly not that they are orthodox Christians. Similarly, I might attack the claim that Barack Obama is a Muslim without having to make any claim regarding his actual faith. This is a simple matter of logic.

5 comments:

Our Founding Truth said...

"By 'orthodox' [Christianity] I mean that they adhered to fundamental Christian doctrines as articulated in the Apostles’ or Nicene Creeds" (164)."


"They adhered to." The founding fathers rejected creeds and did not adhere to them. Even Presbyterian elites rejected creeds evidenced by a leader of NY Presbyterians, William Livingston, and he was a conservative. Their education ingrained ecumenicism in their false faith and ecumenicism rejected creeds.

Even so, I doubt you are familiar enough with Christian theology to understand adherence to those creeds does not make you a Christian.







Tom Van Dyke said...

Our Founding Truth said...

"They adhered to." The founding fathers rejected creeds and did not adhere to them.

...

Even so, I doubt you are familiar enough with Christian theology to understand adherence to those creeds does not make you a Christian.


Jim, at this point even Gregg Frazer must be wondering what the hell you're talking about, why you're attacking Mark David Hall's Christian faith and hoping you get the hell off his side.

You have turned completely against your old self.


https://ourfoundingtruth.blogspot.com/


I just got Mark's book and it's very gentle in its claims--and musings-- about the Founding political theology.

They neither used the Bible as a political weapon, nor did they feel comfortable in conflicting with it. They used it as a backstop. A baseline.

In this way we were indeed founded as a Christian nation. Not even Jefferson dared to contradict the Bible, at least in public.

Our Founding Truth said...

I didn't mention his faith; you did. And Dr. Frazer understands what I'm ralking about. Ask Jon about the ff's and creeds. He affirms what I said. It's true. They rejected them.

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