Saturday, November 22, 2014

Ed Brayton Debates The Christian Nation Thesis

And to finish this weekend's paean to Ed Brayton, check out this video of him debating the Christian Nation thesis as it relates to America's Founding. For those who are not Ed Brayton fans, the other side gets equal time. I have embedded the video below.


6 comments:

Tom Van Dyke said...

Religion was left to the states, so Is US Government founded on the Christian Religion is a false question. Not even David Barton says that.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=23909

Another farce from Ed Brayton.

Michael Heath said...

Tom Van Dyke writes, "Religion was left to the states, so Is US Government founded on the Christian Religion is a false question. Not even David Barton says that."

Hilariously not true. David Barton has long made a living claiming that the U.S. Constitution is based on the Bible along with other false Christian Nation arguments at the federal level in order to promote Christianism. Here's one example, "I could take you through most clauses of the Constitution, but it's interesting when you look at the Constitution and the clauses, if you know the Bible - and a lot of people don't; they look at the Constitution and say "oh, that's cool language." If you know the Bible, you go "that's a direct quote out of a Bible verse."

That's why so many Bible verses are directly cited in the Constitution. When people tell me the Constitution is a secular document, that tells me they're biblically illiterate because if you know the Bible, you'll instantly recognize these verses in Constitutional clauses.
" [1]

Tom concludes, "Another farce from Ed Brayton."

Yep, without Mr. Van Dyke actually taking on anything that Ed actually argued in the video. Which is par for Mr. Van Dyke.

Tom, it's like you study how to make rhetorically fallacious arguments thinking those are guidelines for what to do rather than what not to do. And then at practice such at the most absurd and remedial level.

1] http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/fifth-time-david-barton-falsely-claims-constitution-full-direct-quotations-out-bible#sthash.HQ0QnPjR.dpuf

Tom Van Dyke said...

Posing the question "Is US Government Founded on the Christian Religion" then opening directly with the Treaty of Tripoli

As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

was an ambush, a farce.

Although Barton [wrongly] finds the Bible in the Constitution if you actually read MY evidence, you'll see that even he doesn't make make the claim

that the US Government Founded on the Christian Religion.

And his opponent did a good job against Brayton's trying to make great theo-political hay out of a passing phrase in the relatively obscure Treaty of Tripoli.

The whole thing was sophistic, not a search for actually truth, a polemic against a term, "Christian nation," that was never actually defined.

First rule of an actual debate is to define the terms. This counterfeit fell far short.

Michael Heath said...

Tom Van Dyke writes, "Posing the question "Is US Government Founded on the Christian Religion" then opening directly with the Treaty of Tripoli"

But that wasn't the debated assertion; just a quote-mine by you that moved that subtly though obviously moved the goal posts.

Tom Van Dyke writes, "Although Barton [wrongly] finds the Bible in the Constitution if you actually read MY evidence, you'll see that even he doesn't make make the claim

David Barton is a serial liar and fraud, so quoting him once in no way validates your claim since we can't trust Barton, let alone trust he remains consistent. You also moved the goal posts from the actual controversy to one contrived by you to present Barton's assertion. Plus I've already quoted Barton in my prior post supporting the very thesis that was indeed the topic of the debate and reveals that yes, there is a controversy where millions of voters in this country argue contrary to the position Ed took, like Ed's opponent Tim Schmig.

Tom Van Dyke writes, "The whole thing was sophistic. . . "

I'm have no confidence you watched any of the debate, let alone the whole thing. Exhibit 1 would be your misconstruing the assertion actually debated, which was at the front of the very recording you criticize. That along with the fact most of the debate centered on the very phrase you omitted in your misrepresentation of the topic, "in any sense".

Tom Van Dyke said...

Tom Van Dyke writes, "Posing the question "Is US Government Founded on the Christian Religion" then opening directly with the Treaty of Tripoli"

But that wasn't the debated assertion;

No, it's what it says on the YouTube link.

Now you're just jabbering. There is no thesis or proposition being debated on the video, it's just freeform BS.

As I said originally, religion was left to the states. Federalism means there's more to the United States of America than just the central government's powers as defined and limited by the Constitution.

The entire farce was constructed on a false premise, and nonsense ensues.

MikeTheInfidel said...

"Although Barton [wrongly] finds the Bible in the Constitution if you actually read MY evidence, you'll see that even he doesn't make make the claim that the US Government Founded on the Christian Religion."

... The US government is established by the Constitution. Barton argues that the Constitution is founded upon the Bible. If that's not an argument that the US government is founded upon Christianity, then exactly what is he saying?