Thursday, October 31, 2019

Warren Throckmorton: "Rick Joyner: Everything in the Constitution Comes from the Bible"

Check it out here. A taste:
For years, David Barton has promoted the false notion that everything in the Constitution comes from the BibleTwo summers ago, I read James Madison’s entire notes on the Constitutional Convention looking for the elusive biblical roots of the Constitution only to come up empty.  
Now self-appointed prophet Rick Joyner has taken up this message. ...
And:
... As noted, I read through the notes on the entire Constitutional Convention looking for the biblical influences on the Constitution. Surely, if the framers meant for the Bible to be the foundation of the Constitution, they would have cited it in their debates. Even if they didn’t use chapter and verse, there would have to be some reference to phrases from the Bible for these claims to be true. In fact, there were few references to the Bible or Christianity. There were far more references to Greek and Roman democracies, prior governments, British law and common sense. For the hearty souls who wish to take that same journey, I humbly recommend the series and the endeavor to read Madison’s notes on the 1787 convention. 

15 comments:

Art Deco said...

Hadn't looked at Throckmorton's site in a while. It appears that at his advanced age his hobbies include publishing animadversions directed at various evangelical ministries (who may or may not be guilty of whatever it is he or his email sources are accusing them), commentary on whatever media-generated controversy is swirling around the president, and animadversions against evangelical figures congenial toward the President. Hasn't published on Ted Cruz in a couple of years (when he claimed that Cruz 'claimed to speak for God').

The last paper he placed in a professional journal, co-authored with one Gary Welton, was published in 2005. Dr. Welton's most recent paper was published in 2018.

Jonathan Rowe said...

I think he acts as a good "check" on what folks like David Barton et al. try to sell.

But I would agree there is much more to the story than such a "check." I used to do a lot that before, but have tried to move on. Still, we need these checks to keep us on our toes.

Tom Van Dyke said...

Who the hell's Rick Joyner? And he will change America by one iota how?

Warren's still strictly minor league.

Art Deco said...

Evidently an evangelical entrepreneur who runs a set of conference centers in the Carolinas and issues self-published literature. I'd never heard of him either.

Tom Van Dyke said...

well at least Warren's still punching up ;-D

Jonathan Rowe said...

Mark David Hall's new book avoids all these mistakes (I'm sure, even though I haven't yet read it).

But from the other side we've been hearing this stuff (the US Constitution was based on the Bible, etc.) for years just as you've heard "the founders were all deists."

jimmiraybob said...

"...(I'm sure, even though I haven't yet read it)."

I went to the Kentucky debate between Hall & Andrew Seidel. My impression is that Hall is not arguing for a Christian nation in the political sense but, instead, a Christian founding in he sense of the influence of Christianity. Which, if I'm correct, is not very startling. I'm finishing Seidel's book and will next tackle Hall's.

I do think that he glosses over pre-Christian sources for founding era legal and political philosophical ideas (Seneca and Cicero come to mind with considerable Stoic and Epicurean tones).

It's also odd that Spinoza keeps getting discounted as influential in the emerging realm of Enlightenment ideas (c. late 17th century)- I assume by those that have not read/studied his most influential works; the Theological-Political Treatise and the Ethics. His ideas, for instance, on the sovereignty of the individual (freedom of conscience and freedom of expression) and the non-overlapping roles of church and state sound positively late 18th century American founding. He conceived that the Church/religion, had a right place in the state but should be separate of civil governance. His work on toleration preceded Locke's and was far more liberal...inclusive. He, and more importantly, his presentation of these ideas were very influential in early-to middle-modern Europe.

For someone that seriously wants to comment on Spinoza's contribution I'd recommend a good starting point: A Book Forged in Hell: Spinoza's Scandalous Treatise and the Birth of the Secular Age (2011) by Steven Nadler (Professor of Philosophy at the University of Wisconsin-Madison).

Tom Van Dyke said...

Jonathan Rowe said...
Mark David Hall's new book avoids all these mistakes (I'm sure, even though I haven't yet read it).

But from the other side we've been hearing this stuff (the US Constitution was based on the Bible, etc.) for years just as you've heard "the founders were all deists."



The difference being that the Christian BS is confined to 1000-watt radio stations and churches while the deist BS is held and propagated by mainstream academics in our schools.

Art Deco said...

The difference being that the Christian BS is confined to 1000-watt radio stations and churches while the deist BS is held and propagated by mainstream academics in our schools.

In decades of regular church attendance, I've never heard this thesis presented. Not sure I've ever seen it presented in periodical literature directed at communicants, either. (At different times, I've been a reader of Our Sunday Visitor, the National Catholic Register, The Latin Mass, Books & Culture, Touchstone, First Things, and the electronic edition of World).


One of Warren Throckmorton's hobbies is petty harassment of other hobbyists who pass into his field of vision. Michael Peroutka, a lawyer and local politician from Anne Arundel County, Md. has a side gig where he promotes literature on the Constitution, which includes occasional appearances on panels and the like. He and his sidekick David Whitney were polaxed to discover this fellow at Grove City College was cold-calling around trying to get their speaking engagements cancelled. Another of his targets is Scott Lively, who is pastor of a small evangelical congregation in Springfield, Mass.

Jonathan Rowe said...

I'm pretty tolerant of folks with extreme religious views; but Scott Lively is a whacko in my opinion.

Re your church attendance, if you are Roman Catholic (right?) the "Christian Nation" thesis isn't promoted very much there. There may be something to the accidental Thomism thesis. But it's also possible that such can be exaggerated, which Tim Gordon may be doing.

The American founding had a great deal of anti-Roman Catholic animus to it. And it's the Protestant evangelicals and fundamentalists whose churches might fall for the Christian Nation thesis.

Indeed, when you hear some of the heterodox theists in the American founding talking dismissively about various "orthodox" doctrines, part of the "Christian Nation" strategy is to write it off as mere anti-Roman Catholic sentiment, and nothing to do with the "real Christianity" they endorse.

Like John Adams following Joseph Priestley in decrying the "corruptions of Christianity." I dealt with at least one Christian Nation sympathist here who tried to blame it all on Roman Catholicism.

But there's actually a kernel of truth to this. The two biggest "corruptions of Christianity" that John Adams and Joseph Priestley rejected were the Trinity and Incarnation. And they blame Rome for such!

All of the thousands of things Catholics may claim to be miracles, figures like John Adams would indeed state were "corruptions." But the top two still were the Trinity and Incarnation.

Art Deco said...

I'm pretty tolerant of folks with extreme religious views; but Scott Lively is a whacko in my opinion.

He's perfectly unremarkable. In any case, he's been facing and absurd SLAPP suit filed by a sorosphere outfit in re a brief speaking tour he had in Uganda in 2009. (He was in the country for about five days). Not his usual book, these days, but he was prior to 2008 the press secretary to a series of small political organizations. Throckmorton thinks this absurd suit is fine and dandy. Condign punishment is Throckmorton loses his house to a disgruntled student.

Art Deco said...

I sometimes get the impression, Mr. Rowe, that you'd attempt to understand romances by doing a chemical analysis of the ink. That's a problem with this whole discourse you've been promoting.

Jonathan Rowe said...

Even though Joyner may be a strawman, the point that Throckmorton makes about the Constitution having nothing to do with what's written in the Bible is a notable one.

BTW, Gregg Frazer made it before Throckmorton. And whereas Throckmorton may (or not?) flirt with modern day political theological liberalism, Frazer clearly does not.

https://www.amazon.com/Religious-Beliefs-Americas-Founders-Revelation/dp/0700620214

Art Deco said...

The notion that a legal document is not at all informed by the culture of the people who wrote it ('nothing to do') is rather rum.

I wouldn't credit Throckmorton or Fea with a specific theological perspective (other than a disposition antagonisitic to the implications of what's animated people at protestant institutions historically). The taxonomy in which Franklin Graham and Jonathan Falwell are classified as 'court evangelicals' and Tony Campolo and Jim Wallis are not isn't one where specifically theological principles are sorting criteria.

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