I left my last post stating that it seems that his whole premise for thinking that tyrants should be submitted to and obeyed is that he believes in Pre-Destination and the logical conclusion that everything that happens is God's plan so why resist it? In other words, if a government makes it into "authority" God's plan was for that to happen so who are we to resist that plan?
If this is true then what he is saying is that Hitler was God's plan. At least that seems to be the logical conclusion to his line of reasoning. If this is true then I would submit this statement: No wonder people think Christianity is absurd. What logical sense does this make? Why would God plan for Hitler to kill millions of Jews? Plan implies purpose and intent by definition. So is Frazer saying a God of love before Creation planned for Hitler to kill millions of Jews?
I know some will think this is unfair and others will say what does this have to do with American History and the founding? Well there is a poem I have posted boldly in front of my American History class and it goes more or less like this:
"First they came for the Communists and I was not a Communist so I did not speak up. Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak up because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics and I did not speak up for the Catholics because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up for me."
I tell my kids all the time that History is full of Hitler's that seek to label, discriminate, enslave, and kill people in order to control the world and one will come around again as History repeats itself. It all starts with trying to take someone's rights away slowly until they have none.
That is what the King of England did to the Colonists. That is what they fought against. They tried to separate themselves from his rule and he pressed the issue, hunted them down and tried to kill them. The Jews were willing to leave the rule of Hitler and he would not let them. Many tried to flee Mao and Stalin and were not allowed. If "they" from the poem are coming then one has no choice but to fight or die. There is no reasoning with "they". "They" are coming to kill anyone who will not bow at their feet.
This was King George. He was a Hitler. According to Frazer both were God's plan. So I guess God wanted Hitler to kill millions of Jews so they should just sit back and let it happen right? I ask Dr. Frazer: Why would God purpose for this to happen in His plan?
I know TVD hates when this historical debate turns theological but there is no getting around it. By definition "Christian Nation" bears the name of Christ. If Christ is associated with God then we have to ask who that God is and if this nation is founded in His image? If God purposed for Hitler to kill a bunch of innocent Jews so he could create the Master Race or intended King George and all the other tyrants that were Kings of England to do similar things, then I want nothing to do with Him nor do I want to be part of a Nation that might be based on His image and bear His name. This is the heart of what I think Brad was trying to get at in his posts about Columbus.
Who is worse the Dictator or King that does this nonsense or the people who sit by letting it happen passively because Romans 13 supposedly says to submit and obey these jerks? I think we all know what the person who wrote the poem about Hitler coming for them would say. I first saw this poem after walking through the Holocaust Museum in D.C. where I saw thousands of pairs of shoes that represented a whole village that was slaughtered by Hitler's minions. Some of the shoes were baby shoes. I was appalled when it hit me that this was one of thousands of villages. Those shoes brought that poem to life as I read it up on the wall as I walked out.
Dr. Frazer, I was willing to let this go but you kept it alive. I must ask you to defend your assumption that all that happens, including Hitler, is God's plan. Why? I feel it is the central root cause behind your literal reading of Romans 13 and your exhortation for Washington and company to just sit and take it more than 200 years ago.
As for those of you who have not chimed in because you feel like you do not know the Bible enough or care about it to join the discussion:
This should simplify things and as the rubber meets to road allow for others to join in this discussion about evil happening because good people say nothing.
I think this is a topic related to the founding that we all can relate to. I want to state again that I respect Dr. Frazer and am not trying to be a jerk to him. I really do appreciate all the time spent on this blog whether I agree with him or not. These tough questions in no means are intended to make him look like a bad guy. He is not.