Here is a typical source, from our friend John Lofton, discussing [among other things] Mormonism and the Founding:
Q: Well that’s another aspect that I hadn’t asked you about and that is that Mormonism believes or teaches basically that these founding documents of our country are pretty much sacred scripture which of course no real Christian could ever believe, correct?
A: I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking there.
Q: The founding documents, The Declaration of Independence, they pretty much consider them almost sacred scripture whereas no Christian could actually consider the founding documents to be sacred.
A: Well that’s exactly right and that’s a good point. We test all things in light of Scripture and hold fast to that which is good. So the final repository for faith and practice in a Christian world view is the word of God and everything then is tested in light of Scripture and we hold fast to that which is good.
I would also note that Mormonism is a great analogy to the religious beliefs of America's key Founders. As the American View website says: “'Bible Answer Man' Says Mormons Not Christians; Use Our Words But With Different Meanings." The same thing can be said of America's key Founders. They often used "Christian terminology" that masked heterodox sentiments. According to a strict orthodox Trinitarian view that holds Mormons not to be "Christian," even though Mormons call themselves "Christians," America's key Founders -- Washington, J. Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, G. Morris and a few others -- were not "Christians" even though they at times called themselves "Christians" and presented their heterodox theology under the auspices of "Christianity."
16 comments:
Interesting post. Sorry that it took me so long to get back on this. As a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- better known as the Mormon Church -- I would find it hard to place the founding documents on the same level as the "Book of Mormon" or "The Holy Bible." As the 8th Article of Faith states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Clearly scripture plays a much greater role in Mormon theology than other writings.
With that said, I am not suggesting that Mormons don't hold the founding documents in high regard. Most Mormons beleive strongly that God played an essential role in the founding of the American republic. Virtually every president of the Mormon Church going back to Joseph Smith has commented on the divine nature of America's founding. President Harold B. Lee stated:
"This nation, founded on principles laid down by men whom God raised up, will never fail... I have faith in America. You and I must have faith in America if we understand the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ."
And from President Gordon B. Hinckley, who just recently passed away:
"I believe in America. I am grateful for the Constitution under which this nation lives and moves and has its being. I am profoundly grateful that somehow for more than two centuries of time we have existed as a nation and grown to become the strongest and most free in the entire world. I am grateful for those men whom the God in Heaven raised up and inspired and who pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to establish this nation and its government. I believe in America -- one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We are, of course, not without fault. We have more than our share of crime and of every other evil to be found on the earth. I fear that we have become an arrogant people, but when all is said and done, there is no other nation quite like this one."
There is no doubt that Mormons revere the founders and consider the founding documents to be inspired, but this cannot be taken to mean that they are on the same level as scripture.
Sorry, I keep editing and shortening my comment.
"America's key Founders -- Washington, J. Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, G. Morris and a few others -- were not "Christians" even though they at times called themselves "Christians" and presented their heterodox theology under the auspices of "Christianity."
I would disagree. American society has become more and more ungodly, and more and more immoral, just during my lifetime. Related to this, Revisionists have taken out all mentions of God and prayer from history textbooks. The history that is being taught in schools now is a different history than what was taught in schools when I was a child. Our society (largely due to many efforts by the ACLU and others) is now teaching that the U.S. was never a "Christian" nation, nor was it founded on Judeo-Christian principles. These are all symptoms of the fact that the United States is rebelling against God more and more (which is part of the reason why things are getting worse and worse for this country; God is slowly withdrawin His hand of blessing from our nation). And it seems to me that you are buying into this revised, distorted view of the founding of our nation.
“Knowing that ‘except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain,’ with fervent supplications for His favor, to His overruling providence I commit, with humble, but fearless confidence, my own fate, and the future destinies of my country.”
(John Quincy Adams, in the closing of his inaugural address)
“A man to be a Christian must believe in God, in the Bible, in the Divinity of the Savior’s mission, and in a future state of rewards and punishments.”
(John Quincy Adams, the premise of a lecture he delivered in many places on Truth)
“Are women to have no opinions or actions on subjects relating to the general welfare? Where did the gentleman get this principle? Did he find it in the sacred history (the Bible) – in the language of Miriam the prophetess, in one of the noblest and most sublime songs of triumph that ever met the human eye or ear? Did the gentleman never hear of Deborah, to whom the children of Israel came up for judgment? Has he forgotten the deed of Jael, who slew the dreaded enemy of her country? Has he forgotten Esther, who by her petition saved her people and her country?”
(John Quincy Adams, in his counter to Representative Howard from Maryland, after Adams presented a petition against the annexation of Texas as a slave state)
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
(John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress)
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
(1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.)
Benjamin Franklin:
“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
(Constitutional Convention of 1787)
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Thomas Jefferson:
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
James Madison
“We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
• "I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temporal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way."
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”
•"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven." [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
George Washington:
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
"Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it.
Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.
Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharaoh's army drowning in the Red Sea
The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.
New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ
http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0205_John_Quincy_Adams.html
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
WOW! Now THAT is a Christian Nationalist!!!
I saw his blog and invited him to come over and check us out. He has read a lot of Wallbuilders. We can go through these assertions one by one, in a delicate and civil manner.
Let's start with these two:
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
I'm not sure about Hancock, but I'm almost certain that nowhere in the primary sources can these words be put in Adams' mouth.
John Adams was not a Christian as you would define the term. He rejected almost every single tenet of orthodox Christianity. He was a fervent theological unitarian.
John Adams:
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
Check out this post here where we examine the context of the rest of the letter. Given what I know about how Jeff understands "Christianity," I'm sure in understanding the context of Adams' letter he will likewise conclude that whatever theological system Adams was talking about, it was not "Christianity."
Brad Hart said...
Wow! Now THAT is a Christian Nationalist!!!
Actually, I see American Christians, generally speaking---largely because of the prosperity this nation has enjoyed for so long---as having become selfish, materialistic, placid, seekers after pleasure, self-absorbed, and lazy. Many Christians today are also following after false doctrines and spectacular 'signs' (i.e., ridiculous things like gold dust falling from the sky, etc.).
Therefore, the idea of this nation once again becoming a strong Christian nation (though that would seem to be the ideal, because I think it would glorify God; however, I don't believe it is going to happen, because I believe that those things prophesied in Revelation are not too far away from happening) is probably a fantasy.
However, the Bible does say that God will bless a nation who repents of their sin and follows Him.
Nevertheless, IMO, the best thing for the Christians of this country would be severe persecution against Christians (which has been happening in other countries for a long time), including imprisonment, torture, and even martyrdom. Not that I would ever really desire that (I'm certainly not a masochist), but I have to admit that such persecution would bring Christians out of their slumber and cause them to take their Christianity more seriously. Don't get me wrong; there are many strong Christians in this country (far more than the media would lead you to believe). But as far as spiritual maturity is concerned, as an example, when the communist USSR was still in existence, the spiritual maturity level of persecuted Russian Christians was said to be like college students, while the spiritual maturity level of American Christians was said to be like nursery school kids, in comparison. My point is that prosperity tends to make Christians weak, while persecution tends to make them strong, and to separate the real believers from those who are merely "playing church."
These are "unconfirmed quotations" (in other words, they are bogus). Even Barton admits this. Google David Barton's name with "unconfirmed quotations" and you'll see what I mean:
James Madison
“We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
George Washington:
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
The following misstates Washington's words to the Delaware Indians (the only time Washington ever mentioned the name "Jesus Christ").
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
The following is taken from George Washington's phony prayer journal (it's been debunked as a fraud):
“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
The following is false:
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
Such does not exist in the record of the Constitutional Convention.
There's more to come. Though I would caution you, don't ever rely on
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
as a primary source. It's riddled with factual errors. As much of a distortionist I think Barton is, his cite is far more reliable than the "eadshome" site.
Really, you don't even need to go back to the Founding Fathers to see that this country used to be a Christian nation. The morals of the country were vastly different than they are today, just going back to the time when my grandparents were children. Even when my parents were children, the morals of this country, as well as the country's view of Christianity, was vastly different than today. So really, your nit-picking at each quote of the Founding Fathers is a useless task. Even if some of the Founding Fathers were not born-again Christians, they were far more religious than many Americans are today, and far more religious than almost all politicians today. So, to me, the whole debate about the Founding Fathers, trying to make them to be secular, and trying to make America look like it had a secular founding, is an exercise in futility.
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
This is true. And so is Nelly's letter about GW's "Christianity." But don't forget the point I made in the original post: The Founders' heretical belief system often presented itself under the auspices of "Christianity" just as Mormonism does. For instance, GW's quotation is entirely consistent with the heretical notion that all good people are Christians [which is what I think Washington really believed]. Washington was a neo-pagan or a "noble pagan." He was imbibed in a pagan-Greco-Roman "Stoic" sense of virtue. His idols were not biblical characters but pagan ones like Cincinnatus and Cato. Cato by the way, did the very UNCHRISTIAN thing of committing suicide as a matter of principle. This play highlighting Cato's suicide GW had played for his Christian troops at Valley Forge. Remember John MacArthur's message of biblical purity. During the era of America's Founding there were a-biblical, sometimes anti-biblical sentiments in the air. Washington's idolizing pagan characters and following their noble-pagan sense of virtue illustrates this.
Jeff,
We aren't trying to do that. Rather, what Brad, Tom Van Dyke and I (and the others) are attempting to do is put this in balanced perspective. You are right that the morals were more traditional back then. Keep in mind that on moral matters, Mormons and evangelicals largely agree. Rather what we are showing is the personal religion and political theology of the American Founding was not "authentically Christian" in an orthodox sense, just as you would agree that Mormonism is not authentically Christian in an orthodox sense.
I am thoroughly enjoying your back-and-forth discussion, Jon and Jeff. With that said, it would still be good to hear more from the Mormon perspective, since that is the theme of your post (this is not to say that I am not enjoying your discussion).
To answer the actual question:
Scripture comes from prophets of G-d, while inspiration can come to anyone about any topic. There might even be, such as the U.S. Constitution, inspiration of such a high caliber that it can be considered almost scriptural in importance. By the way, such a high regard for the U.S. Constitution comes from Scriptural statements of LDS Prophets. It is an interesting thought that if Mormons were to “vote” (more like voice agreement to sustain) the U.S. Constitution as Scripture, it could become such. There is the problem that it wasn’t written by prophets or apostles, although that doesn’t take it completely out of the equation; yet, I can’t think of any examples otherwise. While Scripture can be binding on the “Body of the Church,” inspiration can be of significant use without any actual binding authority.
Jettboy,
Thanks for chiming in!
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