Wednesday, August 9, 2017

Throckmorton: "Dear Robert Jeffress: The President’s Authority to Wage War Does Not Come from God"

From Dr. WT here. A taste:
Historically, Baptists Believed in Church-State Separation

Biblically and politically, Jeffress is just wrong to insert himself as a spokesperson for God into the situation.He should turn in his Baptist card.

During the revolutionary and post-revolutionary period, Baptists were among the staunchest supporters of separation of church and state. Now the Baptist-in-name-only Jeffress advises Trump that God has given the green light for lethal action in North Korea.

Romans 13 Doesn’t Apply

First, in our non-theocratic republic, the authority for Trump’s actions comes from the Constitution, not God. America is not a new Israel where the prophets advised the King when to attack an enemy. Jeffress is not God’s mouthpiece to the president with orders from on high.

Second, the Romans passage doesn’t apply in this situation.

Although rulers come and go in accord with God’s providence, the rulers do so within God’s timing and the political structure of their state. Paul does not establish a mechanism for a ruler to discern God’s plan.
Regarding citizens of a nation, they are to respect the authority of that nation’s rulers. The words are addressed to citizens of a nation, not to our president about strategy for deposing rulers of other nations. This isn’t a mandate for America to become take out evil dictators around the world. While in some cases it may further America’s interests to do so, the authority and mandate don’t come from these verses.


5 comments:

Art Deco said...

The Dallas newspaper offers this set of quotations:

"When it comes to how we should deal with evil doers, the Bible, in the book of Romans, is very clear: God has endowed rulers full power to use whatever means necessary - including war - to stop evil," Jeffress said. "In the case of North Korea, God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un."

"That gives the government to the authority to do whatever, whether it's assassination, capital punishment or evil punishment to quell the actions of evildoers like Kim Jong Un," he said.


You can find similar points offered on the authority of rulers courtesy the late Fr. Avery Cardinal Dulles, SJ, once President of the Catholic Theological Society. Fr. Dulles was not enlarging on legal or administrative procedure in 1st century Roman Palestine and it's a reasonable wager Mr. Jeffress isn't either.

What any of this has to do with 'the separation of church and state' will be a puzzle to many.

jimmiraybob said...

”What any of this has to do with 'the separation of church and state' will be a puzzle to many.”

When a politician, especially a leader of state, who is proclaimed by his close religious advisors to be God’s anointed leader starts acting as an enforcer of God’s will it becomes concerning. When that leader of state has no regard for his nation’s legal and constitutional traditions and norms it is even more concerning.

As Jon rightly points out, this is not an American tradition passed on by the founding. This is clearly a violation of the separation church and state as the founders and framers would have understood it – the priesthood in direct counsel with government, very Old European.

If this doesn’t constitute a full blown theocracy, ala Roy Moore’s wildest dreams, then it’s at least encroaching theonomy – the rule by God’s law over man’s law. This has always proven to be nothing but disastrous, especially when driven by zealous and ignorant divines with visions and aspirations of apocalypse and/or fortune – as I said, very Old European.

If the current White House chief occupant actually gets it into his head that anything he does has God’s direct blessing then we are all going to h-e-double hockey sticks in a handbasket, so to speak. You have to admit, “Fire and Fury” has a very Old Testament Biblical quality. It could be BS and pandering to the delusional part of the base. Or, not.

Art Deco said...

Larding your own contrived confusions atop Throckmorton's contrived confusions is not going to make anyone else less confused.

We do not have a full transcript of Jeffress' remarks for context. We do have the quotations from the Dallas papers, which indicate that he is referring to


1. The authority and responsibility of rulers as rulers. NOT

2. The set of procedures by which rulers emerge or are chosen (which are variable from society to society). They certainly do not refer to the corporate relationship between public agencies and ecclesiastical bodies.

jimmiraybob said...

” We do not have a full transcript of Jeffress' remarks for context.”

Maybe this Jeffress statement, given to the CBN (a “Christian Perspective”), will help the confused.

“When it comes to how we should deal with evil doers, the Bible, in the book of Romans, is very clear: God has endowed rulers full power to use whatever means necessary — including war — to stop evil. In the case of North Korea, God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong-Un. I’m heartened to see that our president — contrary to what we’ve seen with past administrations who have taken, at best, a sheepish stance toward dictators and oppressors — will not tolerate any threat against the American people. When President Trump draws a red line, he will not erase it, move it, or back away from it. Thank God for a President who is serious about protecting our country.”

Also too, the current resident of the White House is NOT a RULER.

http://www1.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/archive/2017/08/08/just-in-to-brody-file-pastor-robert-jeffress-says-lsquo-god-has-given-trump-authority-to-take-out-kim-jong-un-rsquo

Art Deco said...

I can explain something to you. I cannot comprehend it for you.