A group blog to promote discussion, debate and insight into the history, particularly religious, of America's founding. Any observations, questions, or comments relating to the blog's theme are welcomed.
The music to Lillback's song is so awful I couldn't even pay attention the lyrics (which don't seem very clever to me).
It's unfortunate that it's written in the style of "Americana" which I love, "The Band" being the best representation of that genre.
All of the members of "The Band" are dead except Robbie Robertson (who can't sing) and Garth Hudson who plays accordion much better than the above fellow.
Pay Garth Hudson to play accordion and rewrite the lyrics to the melody of "Evangeline."
There is nothing wrong with this. Such was done with such classics as "My Country Tis of Thee," and "My Way."
"Something else that has been appropriated from its religious origins: diatonic music — that is, virtually all modern music. The major and minor scales began as “church modes,” developed in the early churches of Europe. Church modes evolved from the Temple music of Jerusalem — along with harmony, whose first historical appearance appears to have been the antiphonal hymns sung by the two choirs of Levites who stood and sang opposite each other in the Jewish Temple.
Back on the Christian side: Perspective was discovered by the liturgical artists of Florence, where its development covers the walls of some of Italy’s greatest churches. Also invented in Italy’s churches and monasteries: the bulk of the architectural and engineering breakthroughs of the Renaissance. Not only did most great men of the Renaissance study in Christian academies, many — like Alberti, and the Fras Angelico and Filippo Lippi — were ordained. Europe’s monasteries were also responsible for the German friar who discovered genetics (Gregor Mendel) and the Belgian priest who conceived the Big Bang (Georges Lemaître).
Of course, it was a Christian — Newton — who discovered Newtonian physics, and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics. Jews and Christians invented the majority of modern medicine — antibiotics and vaccines — and the majority of advanced mathematics. The automobile was invented by the Jew Siegfried Marcus, and the airplane by the Christian Wright brothers — who were the sons of an Evangelical bishop.
etc.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history
Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.
I think when the church was in charge of the music they at one point tried to make the tritone illegal because they thought it of the devil. Then I think they compromised and said, make sure it always resolves.
"...and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics"
Uh, if you're trying to shoehorn Einstein into some kind of Judeo-Christian religious frame you should realize that he was a Spinozist (determinist) and did not believe in a personal anthropomorphic God and was deeply mistrustful of organized religion. Other than that, I like the well-deserved shout-out to the Jews.
"...and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics"
Uh, if you're trying to shoehorn Einstein into some kind of Judeo-Christian religious frame you should realize that he was a Spinozist (determinist) and did not believe in a personal anthropomorphic God and was deeply mistrustful of organized religion.
Yeah, by all means ignore the other 90% of what was posted.
I think when the church was in charge of the music they at one point tried to make the tritone illegal because they thought it of the devil.
This is why I get annoyed when David Barton's trivia ends up front-page news.
"7: What's a tritone?? Question: What's a tritone? I've heard this was considered dangerous music and banned by the church in the middle ages. - J.P. Answer: Strictly speaking, it's an augmented fourth (such as C up to F#), and is called that because it's three whole scale tones in succession (for example, C-D, D-E, E-F#). But a diminished fifth (such as F# up to C) is just a tritone turned upside-down (inverted) and is treated in traditional music with the same care as the tritone. The tritone was in traditional counterpoint studies known as "the devil in music," and was avoided as a difficult-to-sing-in-tune awkward melodic interval. You may read stories at unreliable internet sources about this interval being "banned by the Catholic Church" but really it just presented a technical problem in composition and performance, and so the style "rules" studied by budding musicians advised that one should not use it. Nonetheless, it was used on occasion, and some theorists thought it useful when handled well."
Blogger The Rational Right said... Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.
TVD - “’Something else that has been appropriated from its religious origins: diatonic music — that is, virtually all modern music.’”
However, others, you know, scholars, may disagree.
“We owe the concept of scale and temperament to the ancient Greeks. About the origin of the diatonic scale, the ancient Greek music theoretician, Aristoxenus of Tarantum (fourth century B.C.), wrote:
“’We can establish that the diatonic is the first (proton) and the oldest (presbyteron); this is the type that the human voice naturally finds" (Harmonic Elements I, cited by Haik-Vantoura in her Les 150 Psaumes dans leurs melodies antiques, p. T-51).’”
From the cited article: "Lehman states that in the Baroque period the normal amount of tempering a fifth is 1/6th of a Pythagorean comma, which, he believes, is represented in the squiggle by the convoluted spiral. He interprets the double-spiraled loops to represent the tempering of 1/12th of a Pythagorean comma, and the simple loops to indicate pure fifths. He then devises a temperament he believes to be the one used by Bach, and which, according to Lehman, brings out qualities of Bach’s composition that are hidden in equal temperament."
Sounds like variation on an ancient Greek idea.
From the cited article: "O’Donnell mentions the E-flat/D-sharp Prelude and Fugue, which, curiously, is the only piece in the collection that refers directly to the enharmonic phenomenon."
To take it home once again:
“Aristoxenus [ca. 4th century BCE] describes the structure of his precursor to the enharmonic scale only to demonstrate the process of invention. Thus, both accounts state that the enharmonic genus is younger and superior to the diatonic and chromatic …(1)”
This is just to demonstrate that musical development and invention, diatonic or otherwise, was not originated within the Church by Christianity during the Renaissance. And, modern music does not appropriate from the church but participates in a long chain of musical reinvention with fundamental roots before Jesus walked the Levant.
Much the same can be said of architecture and art.
1) Sophie Gibson, 2005. Aristoxenus of Tarentum and the Birth of Musicology. Routledge. 263 pages.
The fundamentals are linked above for the discerning reader. The topic was
Saturday, February 6, 2016 Why Does Satan Have the Best Music?
which was shown to be worth a re=examination. All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage. You have no point, no thesis; you simply bite the ankles of the actual historical truth.
I'm happy to use your head as a soapbox to stand on for the edification of our real readers. ;-)
"All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage."
Of course, I have done no such thing. Why do you think that trying to inflate that heritage using false claims is a worthwhile pursuit? The point is that your claim, using dubious sources, that "virtually all modern music...has been appropriated from its [Christian] religious origins" Is. Not. An. Actual. Historic. Truth. That is all.
jimmiraybob said... "All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage."
Of course, I have done no such thing.
Oh, of course you have and do and do. We permit you to bore our readership because you illustrate the problem of the secular left. You are a victim, you poor pool. You know nothing except what you've been told.
Now you are nothing more than an argumentative an internet fraud, Google-deep at best, signifying nothing except defending your maleduction.
You clearly know nothing about music, not as a player, not as musicologist, not someone who can tell the difference between Michael Newdow and Bach.
You're worse than an idiot. Even an idiot can easily tell the difference. You are a victim of your education. You poor bastard. You're not only miserable, you're a misery.
You have no idea about how Bach's Mass in B Minor came to be. You know nothing except what you just pulled of Google.
You're not only miserable personally, you wish to evangelically inflict your misery on everyone else, you poor fuck, you. Our dear know-it-all "jimmiraybob," and to all those here gathered, if you listen but do not hear, you waste not just our time but your own.
Actually, Black Gospel music is the fountainhead of jazz.
It is a well known fact that the King of Rock and Roll, Elvis Presley, was first a Gospel singer. He learned his moves from Pentecostals.
I was never a huge fan of Elvis - until I heard some of his Gospel music.
The Mass in b minor is considered to be the greatest piece of music ever written - or at least tied for greatest.
Mozart considered himself to be a Catholic composer, while Bach was the Lutheran.
I mean, how can the history of Western music be re-written to downplay the influence of the Church?
It makes little sense.Why do that?
BTW, I have never heard of “enharmonic” being a “phenomenon.” It’s a way that all 12 major and minor keys can be used and musicians able to play in tune with one another. String players easily make a slight difference of pitch between, say, a G# and an Ab, but not all instruments are willing to adjust every note to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the string players. Imagine trying to play in 6 flats, for example. Every note would sound out of tune if that “phenomenon” were observed.
I mean, if you look at a lot of music from the Baroque period, it is in the key of D, G. C and sometimes F. Without the tempered scale, if you add too many sharps or flats, the intonation gets impossible. Then you have brass instruments without valves, and woodwinds with few keys. A tuning and technical nightmare.
So, the well tempered scale was a kind of compromise and opened up many more musical possibilities. It was revolutionary. it went along with the development of keyboard instruments. That and harmony itself where the tritone became indispensable.
Then things like valves and keys were added to wind instruments, making it more practical for playing in any key.
I mean, there was nothing like that before Bach did his great masterpiece of the Well Tempered Clavier. It was a way to prove that all 12 major and 12 minor scales could used in real playing, not just in theory.
It’s all pretty cool. The Greeks never did anything like that, though it was Pythagorus who invented the diatonic scale. The fixed notes were the 1st, 5th, and octave. Then there were notes in between to make up the 8 notes of the scale. The in between notes weren’t all that fixed I understand. It’s been awhile since I’ve read up on this. The 1 - 5 - 8 pattern is based on the natural overtone series - which is another reason why pre-well tempered days intonation was a bear.
Little compromises are made, but it works quite well. Then, each instrument has its own idiosyncrasies. Anyway...It’s amazing that anyone can play in conjuno with anyone else. :-)
So, I have never heard the importance of the well tempered scale downplayed. Later Chopin also did a 12 and 12 thing with his preludes. There were others as well. Maybe Scriabin? Can’t remember.
Anyway, the idea that the well tempered scale was no big deal or nothing new is pretty absurd.
Blogger The Rational Right said... Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.>>>>
Actually, the video showed a former fundamentalist aping a fundamentalist style conference to promote his anti Christian message. It was bizarre.
All he needed was an overhead projector and it would have been a perfect mimic. So, it was pretty funny, but maybe not in the way you meant it to be.
The black church in the modern era has had much better music than the white church. Instead of having to pull the Bach card, we could have found a contemporary artist artist from the black church to kick Newdow's ass.
This certainly does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYgOE1w1d8g
I was going to say in my above post I thought Mozart was too much of a wild child to be a serious Catholic. But sometimes the wildest of children (if you research Preston, he certainly was) are quite devout and inspired musically.
As has been amply demonstrated, I am a simple-minded, poor bastard fuck, puppet of the leftist conspiracy. However, my rebuttal to a specific posted comment was about the specific claim that diatonic music had religious origins and was essentially appropriated from the Church by modern music. My counterclaim was that, in the West, musicology had a much more ancient origin and that music has been and is a continuous process of synthesis and reinvention. I think that we can all see my commie liberal underpants showing here.
I fully understand the religious inspirations inherent in Medieval to modern music, art and literature. The artists throughout time have had many inspirations and have contributed to many new forms of expression and changes in direction. Any poor fool trained in the secular leftist gulags known collectively as the “Academy”, where they use books and such, knows, at least at a survey level, that the science of music in the west goes back to the Greeks. Especially if the poor fuck loaded up heavily on the dark arts, also known as the ”Liberal Arts.”
On a personal note, I am a fan of much of the religiously-inspired Classical and Baroque as well as some of the more earth bound and sometimes vulgar troubadour compositions and tavern songs (every time I hear the doors Alabama Song, a later invention, it gets me in a rollicking good mood). I would throw one of my favorites, Handel and, specifically, his Messiah into the mix of outstanding classical works that should be discussed and a work that I like to enjoy once or twice a year. And, speaking of Handel’s Messiah, I’m a fan of Christopher Hogwood and his work with the Academy of Ancient Music. So yes, I am completely devoid of music understanding and appreciation.
And, influences on my early musical semi-career were Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson who brought a touch of the classical to the rock and roll which in itself brought a bit of the Gospel and blues into the mainstream. And, speaking of the devil and music perhaps the answer lies at the crossroads – that’s where they say that Robert Johnson met the devil himself.
So, there it is. Apologies all around for my transgressions.
I love Wakeman & Emerson. I'm not much into "camp" (the kinds of classical music and opera I like are the non-campy kinds; so I'm not much of a fan of musical theater).
But I didn't appreciate how awesome Bernstein's "America" is until I heard Keith Emerson's rocked out version of it. He mixes it with Dave Brubecks Blue Rondo (though Emerson rewrote it so it would play in 4/4) and in some performances Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor. And improves over all of it and makes it work.
He even sneaked some of those in even though Pachelbel's is I V Vi Iii ....
Can't copyright chord progressions. But as my pre-Berklee (classical) guitar professor taught me, chord progressions often "imply" certain melodies.
Or as Berklee colleague who is now a professor at Berkley once noted to me, the future of rock n' roll is still I IV V and the like, but just new ways of "arranging" it. What is a (unique copyright-able) melody against a (non-copyright-able) chord structure but a novel voicing or arrangement?
Blogger Jonathan Rowe said... The black church in the modern era has had much better music than the white church. Instead of having to pull the Bach card, we could have found a contemporary artist artist from the black church to kick Newdow's ass.
Exc point. Ever see this one from Eddie Izzard on Christian singing?
Jonathan Rowe: Was Mozart any kind of serious Catholic?>>>
Well, I would have to go back and research it - which I probably won’t do - but my statement was based on what I remember of a mini series on the life of Mozart that the Rai -Radiotelevisione italiana S.p.A. - did some years back.
Mozart claimed to be the great Catholic composer, while Bach was the Protestant.
Did he go to Mass every Sunday or any Sunday? That I can’t tell you. He very much identified himself as Catholic, and he was serious about it.
His Church music was amazing. Remember, his last - and in many ways greatest, yet unfinished - work was his Requiem. He was only 35 when he died, as I am sure you know.
Ms. Webfoot: on Mr. Andrews--Sorry the style obscured the substance. Even the fundies have jettisoned the overhead projector for powerpoint.
But speaking of style over substance, are you sure Elvis is the king of rock and roll? Or is he only a pretender. He never wrote any songs; he could play a guitar, but mostly just wore one around his neck as redneck bling while he did his Pentecostal prancing.
Meanwhile, Chuck Berry hopped up country music, wrote adolescent lyrics about love, cars, school, etc. and made the guitar the preeminent music instrument of rock and roll.
John Lennon said that "If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry."
Tom Van Dyke said... Who's that wanker? Listen to Bach's Mass in B Minor. Christianity created Western Civilization as we know it. There was no such thing as "secular.” >>>>>>
Bach didn’t split his devotion to God into sacred and secular.
“Greatest multiplicity in the frame- work of the greatest order”: Is not the immense work of Johann Sebastian Bach’s life permeated by this principle? Bach wrote all of his works “to God alone the glory,” Soli Deo Gloria, hundreds of spiritual and secular Lieder, cantatas, motets, the powerful Passions and the large fugal works, and not least the later work with the royal theme “Musical Offering” as a “painful and tedious work.” Each of his works attests to the attempt to generate the largest multiplicity in a unity, a perfection, to create the greatest effect by employment of the simplest means. “ - From Bach’s Musical Revolution
It is said that Bach prayed for God’s help every time he sat down to write music, and then the music flowed from his soul.
“Music is an agreeable harmony for the honor of God and the permissible delights of the soul.” ― Johann Sebastian Bach
"Thus o'er my pipe, in contemplation Of such things, I can constantly Indulge in fruitful meditation, And so, puffing contentedly, On land, on sea, at home, abroad, I smoke my pipe and worship God.” - Edifying Thoughts of a Tobacco Smoker from the Second Little Clavier Book for Anna Magdalena Bach
...and a bit about Mozart’s Catholicism. This is from Wikkepedia, but it seems to have been well researched and unchallenged.
He seems to have been a practicing Catholic.
"Mozart himself believed in regular religious Catholic practices and the need for the sacraments of the church. He was nevertheless less harsh than his father with fasting. He did not consider eating meat on fast days as a great sin but charged that "for me fasting means holding back eating less than usual".[21]
In his letter he wrote his father (Mannheim, 2 February 1778):
I have always had God before my eyes, ... I know myself, and I have such a sense of religion that I shall never do anything which I would not do before the whole world; but I am alarmed at the very thoughts of being in the society of people, during my journey, whose mode of thinking is so entirely different from mine (and from that of all good people). But of course they must do as they please. I have no heart to travel with them, nor could I enjoy one pleasant hour, nor know what to talk about; for, in short, I have no great confidence in them. Friends who have no religion cannot be long our friends.[22][23]”
Of course he could have said this to please his father. It is also possible that his “bad boy” image has obscured the fact of his intense personal faith. People are hardly ever one or the other - either perfectly pious or totally given over to indulgences of the flesh. He could not have written the great amount of music he wrote in his short life if he had been totally given to debauchery. He had his interesting character flaws, that’s for sure.
I don’t think he could not have shown such devotion in his religious works if he hadn’t had a strong faith himself. Listen to his Ave verum corpus or his Magnificat or his Requiem - especially the Lacrimosa, which does make me cry - and maybe you will see what I mean.
Here’s further explanation of his religious feelings.
"Trying to characterize Mozart's religious beliefs, Halliwell writes, "An educated guess at the totality of Mozart's beliefs based on reconciling the motley evidence would probably posit a broad belief in Christianity, but impatience with many of the requirements of the Catholic church."[20] MacIntyre suggests that Mozart "seems to have been a freethinking Catholic with a private relationship to God."[24]”
The article explains how Mozart could have been both a faithful Catholic and a Freemason.
"Freemasonry was banned by the Catholic Church in a Papal Bull entitled In eminenti apostolatus issued by Pope Clement XII on 28 April 1738. The ban, however, "was published and came into force only in the Papal States, Spain, Portugal, and Poland."[14] It was not promulgated in Austria, where Mozart lived, until 1792 (after Mozart's death). Hence, although the Catholic Church's opposition to Freemasonry would eventually become known in Austria, during Mozart's lifetime "a good Catholic could perfectly well become a Mason," and it is clear that Mozart saw no conflict between these two allegiances.[15]”
So, anyway. There have been various theories about what actually took Mozart’s life at such a young age - only 35. The man wasn’t a Puritan.
Okay, so I am going to make a tacky connection to Elvis. If someone looks only at a person’s behavior in some areas of their life, one may miss what really drives them, what really inspires them to greatness. Sometimes you have to look deeper to see that. You may have to look past what is on the surface to see who they really are.
I had always loved Mozart, but I came to appreciate Elvis much later in life.
Anyway, that’s kind of weird to talk about Mozart and Elvis in the same sentence. I’m probably wrong. It’s a heart thing, I guess.
Thanks for this. Yes, a pattern I observe on great artists is that their brains tend to be of peculiar structure. They are likelier subject to demons (or secular term "mental illness"), addiction, alternative sexual orientations and sexual wildness (or perhaps they sublimate their peculiar sexual longings), and seek peace in things like religious sentiments.
37 comments:
The music to Lillback's song is so awful I couldn't even pay attention the lyrics (which don't seem very clever to me).
It's unfortunate that it's written in the style of "Americana" which I love, "The Band" being the best representation of that genre.
All of the members of "The Band" are dead except Robbie Robertson (who can't sing) and Garth Hudson who plays accordion much better than the above fellow.
Pay Garth Hudson to play accordion and rewrite the lyrics to the melody of "Evangeline."
There is nothing wrong with this. Such was done with such classics as "My Country Tis of Thee," and "My Way."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-rTkqn-4qg
Much better.
But still not good. And somewhat psychotic. :-P
In a different direction, why do Christians copy it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNik8niSrrY
Who's that wanker? Listen to Bach's Mass in B Minor. Christianity created Western Civilization as we know it. There was no such thing as "secular."
To wit:
"Something else that has been appropriated from its religious origins: diatonic music — that is, virtually all modern music. The major and minor scales began as “church modes,” developed in the early churches of Europe. Church modes evolved from the Temple music of Jerusalem — along with harmony, whose first historical appearance appears to have been the antiphonal hymns sung by the two choirs of Levites who stood and sang opposite each other in the Jewish Temple.
Back on the Christian side: Perspective was discovered by the liturgical artists of Florence, where its development covers the walls of some of Italy’s greatest churches. Also invented in Italy’s churches and monasteries: the bulk of the architectural and engineering breakthroughs of the Renaissance. Not only did most great men of the Renaissance study in Christian academies, many — like Alberti, and the Fras Angelico and Filippo Lippi — were ordained. Europe’s monasteries were also responsible for the German friar who discovered genetics (Gregor Mendel) and the Belgian priest who conceived the Big Bang (Georges Lemaître).
Of course, it was a Christian — Newton — who discovered Newtonian physics, and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics. Jews and Christians invented the majority of modern medicine — antibiotics and vaccines — and the majority of advanced mathematics. The automobile was invented by the Jew Siegfried Marcus, and the airplane by the Christian Wright brothers — who were the sons of an Evangelical bishop.
etc.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430890/cultural-appropriation-leftists-rewrite-history
If you play Bill Gothard backwards, does he sound like Seth Andrews?
If you play a song with 6 flats and it sounds in tune, thank Bach. All to the glory of God!
Thanks, Tom, for the links. Good stuff.
Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.
It was not meant to be a treatise on Western Civ.
But wasn't Satan in charge of music?
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Ezek28.13
Seriously I prefer Bach's Brandenburg Concerto 2, because you-know-who is coming up next.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3V5jquVpN4
I think when the church was in charge of the music they at one point tried to make the tritone illegal because they thought it of the devil. Then I think they compromised and said, make sure it always resolves.
Then we got this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lVdMbUx1_k
As for Bach, I used to be able to play this from start to finish (but at a slightly slower tempo).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNEnzNHTkd8
"...and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics"
Uh, if you're trying to shoehorn Einstein into some kind of Judeo-Christian religious frame you should realize that he was a Spinozist (determinist) and did not believe in a personal anthropomorphic God and was deeply mistrustful of organized religion. Other than that, I like the well-deserved shout-out to the Jews.
"...and a Jew — Einstein — who discovered relativistic physics"
Uh, if you're trying to shoehorn Einstein into some kind of Judeo-Christian religious frame you should realize that he was a Spinozist (determinist) and did not believe in a personal anthropomorphic God and was deeply mistrustful of organized religion.
Yeah, by all means ignore the other 90% of what was posted.
I think when the church was in charge of the music they at one point tried to make the tritone illegal because they thought it of the devil.
This is why I get annoyed when David Barton's trivia ends up front-page news.
"7: What's a tritone??
Question: What's a tritone? I've heard this was considered dangerous music and banned by the church in the middle ages. - J.P.
Answer: Strictly speaking, it's an augmented fourth (such as C up to F#), and is called that because it's three whole scale tones in succession (for example, C-D, D-E, E-F#). But a diminished fifth (such as F# up to C) is just a tritone turned upside-down (inverted) and is treated in traditional music with the same care as the tritone. The tritone was in traditional counterpoint studies known as "the devil in music," and was avoided as a difficult-to-sing-in-tune awkward melodic interval. You may read stories at unreliable internet sources about this interval being "banned by the Catholic Church" but really it just presented a technical problem in composition and performance, and so the style "rules" studied by budding musicians advised that one should not use it. Nonetheless, it was used on occasion, and some theorists thought it useful when handled well."
Blogger The Rational Right said...
Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.
I'm calm. Annoyed, but calm. ;-)
TVD - “’Something else that has been appropriated from its religious origins: diatonic music — that is, virtually all modern music.’”
However, others, you know, scholars, may disagree.
“We owe the concept of scale and temperament to the ancient Greeks. About the origin of the diatonic scale, the ancient Greek music theoretician, Aristoxenus of Tarantum (fourth century B.C.), wrote:
“’We can establish that the diatonic is the first (proton) and the oldest (presbyteron); this is the type that the human voice naturally finds" (Harmonic Elements I, cited by Haik-Vantoura in her Les 150 Psaumes dans leurs melodies antiques, p. T-51).’”
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory25.htm
Or, just google for additional citations.
What percentage am I up to now?
0. It's not like you really have any idea what you're cutting and pasting.
http://www.juilliard.edu/journal/ongoing-quest-bachs-temperament
Some argue for reasons. Others simply argue.
Interesting.
From the cited article: "Lehman states that in the Baroque period the normal amount of tempering a fifth is 1/6th of a Pythagorean comma, which, he believes, is represented in the squiggle by the convoluted spiral. He interprets the double-spiraled loops to represent the tempering of 1/12th of a Pythagorean comma, and the simple loops to indicate pure fifths. He then devises a temperament he believes to be the one used by Bach, and which, according to Lehman, brings out qualities of Bach’s composition that are hidden in equal temperament."
Sounds like variation on an ancient Greek idea.
From the cited article: "O’Donnell mentions the E-flat/D-sharp Prelude and Fugue, which, curiously, is the only piece in the collection that refers directly to the enharmonic phenomenon."
To take it home once again:
“Aristoxenus [ca. 4th century BCE] describes the structure of his precursor to the enharmonic scale only to demonstrate the process of invention. Thus, both accounts state that the enharmonic genus is younger and superior to the diatonic and chromatic …(1)”
This is just to demonstrate that musical development and invention, diatonic or otherwise, was not originated within the Church by Christianity during the Renaissance. And, modern music does not appropriate from the church but participates in a long chain of musical reinvention with fundamental roots before Jesus walked the Levant.
Much the same can be said of architecture and art.
1) Sophie Gibson, 2005. Aristoxenus of Tarentum and the Birth of Musicology. Routledge. 263 pages.
Some argue for reasons.
It doesn't matter what the reasons if the fundamentals of the argument aren't sound.
The fundamentals are linked above for the discerning reader. The topic was
Saturday, February 6, 2016
Why Does Satan Have the Best Music?
which was shown to be worth a re=examination. All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage. You have no point, no thesis; you simply bite the ankles of the actual historical truth.
I'm happy to use your head as a soapbox to stand on for the edification of our real readers. ;-)
Beautiful song, Jonathan . . the Bach, that is.
"All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage."
Of course, I have done no such thing. Why do you think that trying to inflate that heritage using false claims is a worthwhile pursuit? The point is that your claim, using dubious sources, that "virtually all modern music...has been appropriated from its [Christian] religious origins" Is. Not. An. Actual. Historic. Truth. That is all.
Carry on.
jimmiraybob said...
"All you've done is once again illustrate the left-wing project to deny our religious heritage."
Of course, I have done no such thing.
Oh, of course you have and do and do. We permit you to bore our readership because you illustrate the problem of the secular left. You are a victim, you poor pool. You know nothing except what you've been told.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/15545-gramscis-grand-plan
How much is your student debt?
Now you are nothing more than an argumentative an internet fraud, Google-deep at best, signifying nothing except defending your maleduction.
You clearly know nothing about music, not as a player, not as musicologist, not someone who can tell the difference between Michael Newdow and Bach.
You're worse than an idiot. Even an idiot can easily tell the difference. You are a victim of your education. You poor bastard. You're not only miserable, you're a misery.
You have no idea about how Bach's Mass in B Minor came to be. You know nothing except what you just pulled of Google.
You're not only miserable personally, you wish to evangelically inflict your misery on everyone else, you poor fuck, you. Our dear know-it-all "jimmiraybob," and to all those here gathered, if you listen but do not hear, you waste not just our time but your own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F7TVM8m95Y
Actually, Black Gospel music is the fountainhead of jazz.
It is a well known fact that the King of Rock and Roll, Elvis Presley, was first a Gospel singer. He learned his moves from Pentecostals.
I was never a huge fan of Elvis - until I heard some of his Gospel music.
The Mass in b minor is considered to be the greatest piece of music ever written - or at least tied for greatest.
Mozart considered himself to be a Catholic composer, while Bach was the Lutheran.
I mean, how can the history of Western music be re-written to downplay the influence of the Church?
It makes little sense.Why do that?
BTW, I have never heard of “enharmonic” being a “phenomenon.” It’s a way that all 12 major and minor keys can be used and musicians able to play in tune with one another. String players easily make a slight difference of pitch between, say, a G# and an Ab, but not all instruments are willing to adjust every note to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the string players. Imagine trying to play in 6 flats, for example. Every note would sound out of tune if that “phenomenon” were observed.
I mean, if you look at a lot of music from the Baroque period, it is in the key of D, G. C and sometimes F. Without the tempered scale, if you add too many sharps or flats, the intonation gets impossible. Then you have brass instruments without valves, and woodwinds with few keys. A tuning and technical nightmare.
So, the well tempered scale was a kind of compromise and opened up many more musical possibilities. It was revolutionary. it went along with the development of keyboard instruments. That and harmony itself where the tritone became indispensable.
Then things like valves and keys were added to wind instruments, making it more practical for playing in any key.
I mean, there was nothing like that before Bach did his great masterpiece of the Well Tempered Clavier. It was a way to prove that all 12 major and 12 minor scales could used in real playing, not just in theory.
It’s all pretty cool. The Greeks never did anything like that, though it was Pythagorus who invented the diatonic scale. The fixed notes were the 1st, 5th, and octave. Then there were notes in between to make up the 8 notes of the scale. The in between notes weren’t all that fixed I understand. It’s been awhile since I’ve read up on this. The 1 - 5 - 8 pattern is based on the natural overtone series - which is another reason why pre-well tempered days intonation was a bear.
Little compromises are made, but it works quite well. Then, each instrument has its own idiosyncrasies. Anyway...It’s amazing that anyone can play in conjuno with anyone else. :-)
So, I have never heard the importance of the well tempered scale downplayed. Later Chopin also did a 12 and 12 thing with his preludes. There were others as well. Maybe Scriabin? Can’t remember.
Anyway, the idea that the well tempered scale was no big deal or nothing new is pretty absurd.
Blogger The Rational Right said...
Calm down, Tom. Rowe made a joke and I piggybacked off of it with a somewhat humorous look at fundamentalists and music. They are in the world but not of it. Yet they mimic it.>>>>
Actually, the video showed a former fundamentalist aping a fundamentalist style conference to promote his anti Christian message. It was bizarre.
All he needed was an overhead projector and it would have been a perfect mimic. So, it was pretty funny, but maybe not in the way you meant it to be.
I know Bach was a devout Lutheran who ironically wrote all this great music for the Catholic Church as a hired gun.
Was Mozart any kind of serious Catholic?
The black church in the modern era has had much better music than the white church. Instead of having to pull the Bach card, we could have found a contemporary artist artist from the black church to kick Newdow's ass.
This certainly does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYgOE1w1d8g
I was going to say in my above post I thought Mozart was too much of a wild child to be a serious Catholic. But sometimes the wildest of children (if you research Preston, he certainly was) are quite devout and inspired musically.
Mrs. Webfoot,
As has been amply demonstrated, I am a simple-minded, poor bastard fuck, puppet of the leftist conspiracy. However, my rebuttal to a specific posted comment was about the specific claim that diatonic music had religious origins and was essentially appropriated from the Church by modern music. My counterclaim was that, in the West, musicology had a much more ancient origin and that music has been and is a continuous process of synthesis and reinvention. I think that we can all see my commie liberal underpants showing here.
I fully understand the religious inspirations inherent in Medieval to modern music, art and literature. The artists throughout time have had many inspirations and have contributed to many new forms of expression and changes in direction. Any poor fool trained in the secular leftist gulags known collectively as the “Academy”, where they use books and such, knows, at least at a survey level, that the science of music in the west goes back to the Greeks. Especially if the poor fuck loaded up heavily on the dark arts, also known as the ”Liberal Arts.”
On a personal note, I am a fan of much of the religiously-inspired Classical and Baroque as well as some of the more earth bound and sometimes vulgar troubadour compositions and tavern songs (every time I hear the doors Alabama Song, a later invention, it gets me in a rollicking good mood). I would throw one of my favorites, Handel and, specifically, his Messiah into the mix of outstanding classical works that should be discussed and a work that I like to enjoy once or twice a year. And, speaking of Handel’s Messiah, I’m a fan of Christopher Hogwood and his work with the Academy of Ancient Music. So yes, I am completely devoid of music understanding and appreciation.
And, influences on my early musical semi-career were Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson who brought a touch of the classical to the rock and roll which in itself brought a bit of the Gospel and blues into the mainstream. And, speaking of the devil and music perhaps the answer lies at the crossroads – that’s where they say that Robert Johnson met the devil himself.
So, there it is. Apologies all around for my transgressions.
Upon further review, I probably should have added a few happy faces along the way to better set the tone.
I love Wakeman & Emerson. I'm not much into "camp" (the kinds of classical music and opera I like are the non-campy kinds; so I'm not much of a fan of musical theater).
But I didn't appreciate how awesome Bernstein's "America" is until I heard Keith Emerson's rocked out version of it. He mixes it with Dave Brubecks Blue Rondo (though Emerson rewrote it so it would play in 4/4) and in some performances Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor. And improves over all of it and makes it work.
He also does Flight of the Bumblebee in this one and lets minimalist Joe Walsh solo some slow notes over the fast moving background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZT1tWVQwCk
Jimmyraybob, you may enjoy this. It could be an example of how the “devil” stole his ideas from the Church. It’s the Pachelbel Rant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM
Don’t worry, Jimmyraybob, we’re in the year of grace.
Of course, the phrase about the devil having all the good music originates from the 19th Century.
LOl. That's almost as good as the I V Vi IV rant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ
He even sneaked some of those in even though Pachelbel's is I V Vi Iii ....
Can't copyright chord progressions. But as my pre-Berklee (classical) guitar professor taught me, chord progressions often "imply" certain melodies.
Or as Berklee colleague who is now a professor at Berkley once noted to me, the future of rock n' roll is still I IV V and the like, but just new ways of "arranging" it. What is a (unique copyright-able) melody against a (non-copyright-able) chord structure but a novel voicing or arrangement?
Blogger Jonathan Rowe said...
The black church in the modern era has had much better music than the white church. Instead of having to pull the Bach card, we could have found a contemporary artist artist from the black church to kick Newdow's ass.
Exc point. Ever see this one from Eddie Izzard on Christian singing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuEuY4BUMfM
Jonathan Rowe:
Was Mozart any kind of serious Catholic?>>>
Well, I would have to go back and research it - which I probably won’t do - but my statement was based on what I remember of a mini series on the life of Mozart that the Rai -Radiotelevisione italiana S.p.A. - did some years back.
Mozart claimed to be the great Catholic composer, while Bach was the Protestant.
Did he go to Mass every Sunday or any Sunday? That I can’t tell you. He very much identified himself as Catholic, and he was serious about it.
His Church music was amazing. Remember, his last - and in many ways greatest, yet unfinished - work was his Requiem. He was only 35 when he died, as I am sure you know.
Izzard was brilliant as usual. I didn't think his comedy took an interest in such a topic.
Mrs. W.
Thanks. I seemed to remember some religious purists being down on the Magic Flute and its Freemasonic elements.
Ms. Webfoot: on Mr. Andrews--Sorry the style obscured the substance. Even the fundies have jettisoned the overhead projector for powerpoint.
But speaking of style over substance, are you sure Elvis is the king of rock and roll? Or is he only a pretender. He never wrote any songs; he could play a guitar, but mostly just wore one around his neck as redneck bling while he did his Pentecostal prancing.
Meanwhile, Chuck Berry hopped up country music, wrote adolescent lyrics about love, cars, school, etc. and made the guitar the preeminent music instrument of rock and roll.
John Lennon said that "If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry."
Tom Van Dyke said...
Who's that wanker? Listen to Bach's Mass in B Minor. Christianity created Western Civilization as we know it. There was no such thing as "secular.” >>>>>>
Bach didn’t split his devotion to God into sacred and secular.
“Greatest multiplicity in the frame- work of the greatest order”: Is not the immense work of Johann Sebastian Bach’s life permeated by this principle?
Bach wrote all of his works “to God alone the glory,” Soli Deo Gloria, hundreds of spiritual and secular Lieder, cantatas, motets, the powerful Passions and the large fugal works, and not least the later work with the royal theme “Musical Offering” as a “painful and tedious work.” Each of his works attests to the attempt to generate the largest multiplicity in a unity, a perfection, to create the greatest effect by employment of the simplest means. “
- From Bach’s Musical Revolution
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2000/eirv27n25-20000623/eirv27n25-20000623_029-bachs_musical_revolution.pdf
It is said that Bach prayed for God’s help every time he sat down to write music, and then the music flowed from his soul.
“Music is an agreeable harmony for the honor of God and the permissible delights of the soul.”
― Johann Sebastian Bach
"Thus o'er my pipe, in contemplation
Of such things, I can constantly
Indulge in fruitful meditation,
And so, puffing contentedly,
On land, on sea, at home, abroad,
I smoke my pipe and worship God.”
- Edifying Thoughts of a Tobacco Smoker
from the Second Little Clavier Book
for Anna Magdalena Bach
http://www2.nau.edu/tas3/wtc/metaphor.html
...and a bit about Mozart’s Catholicism. This is from Wikkepedia, but it seems to have been well researched and unchallenged.
He seems to have been a practicing Catholic.
"Mozart himself believed in regular religious Catholic practices and the need for the sacraments of the church. He was nevertheless less harsh than his father with fasting. He did not consider eating meat on fast days as a great sin but charged that "for me fasting means holding back eating less than usual".[21]
In his letter he wrote his father (Mannheim, 2 February 1778):
I have always had God before my eyes, ... I know myself, and I have such a sense of religion that I shall never do anything which I would not do before the whole world; but I am alarmed at the very thoughts of being in the society of people, during my journey, whose mode of thinking is so entirely different from mine (and from that of all good people). But of course they must do as they please. I have no heart to travel with them, nor could I enjoy one pleasant hour, nor know what to talk about; for, in short, I have no great confidence in them. Friends who have no religion cannot be long our friends.[22][23]”
Of course he could have said this to please his father. It is also possible that his “bad boy” image has obscured the fact of his intense personal faith. People are hardly ever one or the other - either perfectly pious or totally given over to indulgences of the flesh. He could not have written the great amount of music he wrote in his short life if he had been totally given to debauchery. He had his interesting character flaws, that’s for sure.
I don’t think he could not have shown such devotion in his religious works if he hadn’t had a strong faith himself. Listen to his Ave verum corpus or his Magnificat or his Requiem - especially the Lacrimosa, which does make me cry - and maybe you will see what I mean.
Here’s further explanation of his religious feelings.
"Trying to characterize Mozart's religious beliefs, Halliwell writes, "An educated guess at the totality of Mozart's beliefs based on reconciling the motley evidence would probably posit a broad belief in Christianity, but impatience with many of the requirements of the Catholic church."[20] MacIntyre suggests that Mozart "seems to have been a freethinking Catholic with a private relationship to God."[24]”
The article explains how Mozart could have been both a faithful Catholic and a Freemason.
"Freemasonry was banned by the Catholic Church in a Papal Bull entitled In eminenti apostolatus issued by Pope Clement XII on 28 April 1738. The ban, however, "was published and came into force only in the Papal States, Spain, Portugal, and Poland."[14] It was not promulgated in Austria, where Mozart lived, until 1792 (after Mozart's death). Hence, although the Catholic Church's opposition to Freemasonry would eventually become known in Austria, during Mozart's lifetime "a good Catholic could perfectly well become a Mason," and it is clear that Mozart saw no conflict between these two allegiances.[15]”
So, anyway. There have been various theories about what actually took Mozart’s life at such a young age - only 35. The man wasn’t a Puritan.
https://www.themedicalbag.com/story/wolfgang-amadeus-mozart
Okay, so I am going to make a tacky connection to Elvis. If someone looks only at a person’s behavior in some areas of their life, one may miss what really drives them, what really inspires them to greatness. Sometimes you have to look deeper to see that. You may have to look past what is on the surface to see who they really are.
I had always loved Mozart, but I came to appreciate Elvis much later in life.
Anyway, that’s kind of weird to talk about Mozart and Elvis in the same sentence. I’m probably wrong. It’s a heart thing, I guess.
Mrs. W:
Thanks for this. Yes, a pattern I observe on great artists is that their brains tend to be of peculiar structure. They are likelier subject to demons (or secular term "mental illness"), addiction, alternative sexual orientations and sexual wildness (or perhaps they sublimate their peculiar sexual longings), and seek peace in things like religious sentiments.
Thomas Kincaide for instance.
Though Bach seemed straight as an arrow.
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