tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post8796297987777659152..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: John Jay, John Locke and their common objection to toleration for CatholicsBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-16770609440704577192021-05-25T22:52:02.612-06:002021-05-25T22:52:02.612-06:00Which makes me wonder where Justice Jay got the au...Which makes me wonder where Justice Jay got the audacity to call himself a Christian. Anyone who requires a man to have greater loyalty to the State than to God is an idolater.myth busterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03953385780882344901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32578017238121947792011-06-26T19:18:26.652-06:002011-06-26T19:18:26.652-06:00.
Inidivduals were granted equal right under the l....<br /><i>Inidivduals were granted equal right under the law, but were not guarunteed anything over and above that, as the social welfare State has imposed!!!</i><br />.<br />You seem to forget that we have a Constitution with Amendments all designed to provide a Government of, by, and for the People complete with the ability to evolve. We are not sticks in the mud of the past. The Founders quit Europe and created a new order of society. We are set up to be a self governing people. Pretty basic stuff, Angie. Sorry you have such a problem with minorities and unions. They have given us a great deal and it cost them more sacrifice than we can easily imagine.<br />.<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-18849831488224052502011-06-26T16:31:19.186-06:002011-06-26T16:31:19.186-06:00the "moral question" is whether our &quo...the "moral question" is whether our "stomachs", and our differences in geography and opportunity should be limited, because of "equality"? That would be a horrendous error in judgment, I think. Why? Because limiting things in America also limits what has made America great! A free market economy, and the value of "getting ahead", "having a sense of success", "the pride of earning a living", and "doing one's best". The encouragement in such an environment of pursuing or creating one's dream. That is the "ideal" of diversity, not uniformity! People will choose different "ways of life" and must learn from or accept "failure". Otherwise, society will always be rescuing "the perishing", and that equals to unequal budens upon the taxpayer, the working American and the creative enteuprenuer!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-82149322965434103552011-06-26T16:14:37.108-06:002011-06-26T16:14:37.108-06:00Those that look at societal rights, first, must vi...Those that look at societal rights, first, must view society in a "Spinoza like fashion". Society is an organism, but without individual claims to social contract, then there is a limitation upon the individual's right to pursue his own interests. This is tyranny, according to our Founders, as it was the individual that was granted rights of liberty and limiting the government's right to intrude upon that liberty!<br /><br />Inidivduals were granted equal right under the law, but were not guarunteed anything over and above that, as the social welfare State has imposed!!!<br /><br />We see now that our 'investments' in Greece haven't changed the state of affairs, and so we might foot the bill again for a bail-out at the tune of 150 billion more...<br /><br />My husband is from Europe, and he pointed out that not everyone is living in the same conditions and circumstances in America, as Europe. Europeans do not have the land mass, or the opportunities for the vastly different interests that Americans might have...not due to a difference in the "human", but a difference in geography and cultural values....If beaucracies try a "one size fits all" standardization, which can lead to corruption, it also must lead to discrimination at some level, because each need is different...A rancher in South Dakota's interests will differ from the urban businessman...so socialism wouldn't equalize the cup, because the cup itself is so vastly different!!!(filling a 10oz. cup versus a 20oz one...and then there are the differences of comsuptive needs, i.e. the size of one's stomach....) ;-)!!!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55294481550363416812011-06-26T15:45:03.854-06:002011-06-26T15:45:03.854-06:00Unity does not come from religion, but from ideals...Unity does not come from religion, but from ideals of "beauty, truth, justice". These ideals of "liberty and justice for all" are values that our Founders wanted all people to enjoy and experience. <br /><br />This was why the individual was "equal before the law"! It is only the individual that can express these universals in their own individual ways to benefit society and mankind. And it is the indivdual's right to pursue such interests and one can only pursue one's interests in a free society...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-36832320183854688052011-06-26T15:03:52.222-06:002011-06-26T15:03:52.222-06:00It is on Google, and there are differnt ways of sp...It is on Google, and there are differnt ways of spelling it..."exorborant" was used as a hyperbole...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-52972450781337959712011-06-26T14:57:23.558-06:002011-06-26T14:57:23.558-06:00We recently went to a wedding that left me with a ...We recently went to a wedding that left me with a little to be desired. It wasn't that I didn't like her dress, or the people involved, and I dismissed it intially as a difference of personal tastes...I really enjoyed my daughter's wedding and thought it was because we chose our tastes ..<br /><br />But, on further thought, as something kept disturbing me, it was because the coupld "tried too hard" to give a religious message, instead of it being a celebration of their commitment! All people can rejoice and "enter the celebration" of human commitment, but not all will enter the narrow world and vision of an evangelical believer!!! <br /><br />I had numerous people tell us how much they enjoyed our daughter's wedding, even a month or so later, and how it didn't compare to other weddings they'd been to...and each of these people were very different...kinds...It was beauty that grasped their minds and hearts, not a message, but a sensory experience, overall!!!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-91044016183215989452011-06-26T14:38:53.478-06:002011-06-26T14:38:53.478-06:00When we talk of promoting "nature", are ...When we talk of promoting "nature", are we not talking about "a human" (a specific individual), or are we talking about "humanity" (an "ideal")? <br /><br />If we talk of the former, then we are talking about economics, and slavery/poverty and economic policy. But, Marx, though he promises equality through "class warfare", doesn't bring about a real 'equality' because his is a "collective" society that demotivates individual desire from incentives to perform in excellence. <br /><br />Excellence is an elitist view point, because not everyone can produce the same things, but the earning of those talents belongs to the indivdual who produces them, not "the collective", where those in power can confiscate a "wage" for their job of redistributing wealth to the "less fortunate"!!! Why don't those that oversee such "equal outcomes" volunteer their services for the 'greater good", then? That would be a noble thing to do ;-)! <br /><br />Theology is a means to get the Masses to concur with "social outcomes", as Marx said that "religion is the opiate of the people"! And such theology is a liberation theology...Black power! If that makes me bigoted, then so be it! I believe in equal justice before the law, not essentialists' claims!!!<br /><br />I am not bigoted against Roman Catholicism. I just don't care, because religion seems to further the interests of those in power whoever they are and whatever they believe!!! That is how "things work"!! and getting one's "vision" implemented is what "life is about", but those that "use" the Church for their "greater good" are undermining our nation's value of liberty and individual rights....These true believers, truly believe in their visions, under the guise of religion and moral purposes...without understanding that one's vision isn't an absolute claim to or about "God", "Truth" or "Beauty", but is really about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and how that should "look". The questions will be questions of practical realities, but theorhetical differernces in how they are understood. <br /><br />If I am "lost", then it is in deciding where I 'play out" or what I think is the most important approach to political philosophy!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88973567203772444372011-06-26T14:20:32.191-06:002011-06-26T14:20:32.191-06:00.
Where did you come up with that word, exorborant....<br />Where did you come up with that word, exorborant, Angie. I've seen it before and spelled in different ways. But, is it in the dictionary?n I don't think so.<br />,<br />,<br />,Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-79610831396049939962011-06-26T14:10:10.274-06:002011-06-26T14:10:10.274-06:00Angie, I'm not in the mood for race-baiting or...Angie, I'm not in the mood for race-baiting or anti-Catholic bigotry just this moment. Your objection to Roman Catholic thought as mere "groupthink" shows a woeful ignorance of what it even is. You're lost, girl. You need to go somewhere they take Ayn Rand and other Objectivist pap seriously, because that stuff doesn't even register on the map of the real world of serious thought.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-66386579534011977472011-06-26T14:00:45.814-06:002011-06-26T14:00:45.814-06:00.
...sacred and dogmatic theology is called by Tho....<br /><i>...sacred and dogmatic theology is called by Thomas Aquinas the queen of the sciences, and philosophy is her handmaiden.</i> (see Mortimer Adler, http://www.thegreatideas.org/apd-theo.html)<br />.<br />The dispute between religion and science has been going on for a long time. It was long accepted that the creation story in the Book of Genesis was "science" to early thinking. <br />.<br />During the nineteenth and early twentieth century the disputes over science and religion were all over the place in the American media and in the pulpits. Think of the Scopes Monkey Trial with Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan.<br />.<br />In my teens (1940s) I was reading books written in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century in which the authors were explaining the supernatural. As I recall some were influenced by far eastern mystics.<br />.<br />I think we have come to a place as a result of the influence of scientific discoveries wnen we no longer can call philosophy handmaiden to religion.<br /><br />More to the point, philosophy is taking its role as handmaiden to science.<br />.<br />The times, they are a changing.<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58598764954792348672011-06-26T13:32:20.328-06:002011-06-26T13:32:20.328-06:00Tom,
My son was here for lunch. He is the one I wr...Tom,<br />My son was here for lunch. He is the one I wrote Pinky about who works for a union "shop". He pays exorborant union dues with only little to show for it. He says it is due to the fact that he is not black so when he has a complaint it gets put under the burner, so to speak....<br /><br />He talked with us about the option of the "Right to Work" option which if our State had voted in, he would be able to opt out of the 'union and its dues"!!! That means he could choose the "outcomes" with his own goals, purposes, desires and interests in mind!!! Otherwise, he has to "tow the party line" of those that have poltiical power....the minority grooup!!! <br /><br />Then at the table he discussed where this "equality" had a detrimental effect on his desiring to put in a stronger effort, than the guy who gets paid the same for doing a lesser job!!! No profit sharing, that he could choose to spend or save as he wishes...<br /><br />There are so many problems with collectivity, I cannot even begin to count!!! Cooperation has to be born out of incentive, desire, interests, and goals....it cannot be mandated, manipulated, co-cerced or imposed from the outside, without doing some major damage to liberty and individuality!!!<br /><br />Catholicism is group think, as it is one Tradition among many. Tradition serves its own interests, as well as any individual, even in the process of seeking "the good"....does an individual choose to associate with Tradition's "good"...that should be the quesiton...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78281073487617871252011-06-26T13:21:19.116-06:002011-06-26T13:21:19.116-06:00Wallace, W. Jason. Catholics, slaveholders, and th...Wallace, W. Jason. Catholics, slaveholders, and the dilemma of American evangelicalism, 1835-1860. Notre Dame, 2010. 200p index afp ISBN 026804421x pbk, $30.00; ISBN9780268044213 pbk, $30.00. Reviewed in 2011jul CHOICE.<br />Over the past 40 years, scholars have produced a cornucopia of quality scholarship detailing the importance of religion in the antebellum era and how particular religious ideas shaped competing visions of the American Republic, creating the context for and animating the Civil War. Wallace's fine volume elucidates the challenge Catholicism brought to that discourse. Its traditional theology challenged the individualism in the hermeneutics of northern and southern Protestants. Increasing German and Irish Catholic immigration threatened the English domination of the US. In five crisp chapters, Wallace (history, Samford Univ.) outlines how Catholicism debated the hegemonic discourse of Protestant-based acquisitive capitalism, articulated a traditional accommodation to slavery as a product of human sin, and asserted its own historic and ongoing contribution to the discussion of social morality and the proper sources of the Christian life. In their attempts to explain, Catholic leaders offered a powerful critique of nationalism and religion rooted solely in the authority of individual believers under the Constitution and Scripture, an intellectual impeachment given credence by the outbreak of Civil War. Catholicism offered an alternative vision rooted in tradition, realism, and theology. Summing Up:Recommended. All levels/libraries. -- E. R. Crowther, Adams State CollegeTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71817174034475753902011-06-26T13:19:02.363-06:002011-06-26T13:19:02.363-06:00I had taken the reading of religion without scienc...I had taken the reading of religion without science is blind, as an understanding of sociology/psychology/religious studies/history of traditions/neuroscience..<br /><br />While the former; science without religion is lame as a organized way to make science acceptable....Einstein understood that religion was a way to "appeal to cooperation"...which in my interpretation would have been manipulative..but his understanding of human values and goals give room for Constituional government as he speaks about pursuit of one's interests at the costs to another......his understanding of Spinoza and the worship of nature in beauty is commenable. "The humanities" are the free expression of individuals who delight in beauty, too. Science, as in nature, is not the only avenue to beauty...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-64157791981779580162011-06-26T12:40:48.445-06:002011-06-26T12:40:48.445-06:00JRB, I had not come across Einstein's essay &q...JRB, I had not come across Einstein's essay "<a href="http://andrewvs.blogs.com/usu/files/einstein_religion_science.pdf" rel="nofollow">Religion and Science: Irreconcilable?</a>". It is a very good description of Einstein's understanding of religion. Thanks for pointing it out.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-79482616883506675262011-06-26T11:51:01.337-06:002011-06-26T11:51:01.337-06:00As bpa said, Einstein is not referring to organize...As bpa said, Einstein is not referring to organized religion and had no belief in a personal god. I think his sense of religion was an emotional appreciation of the enormity and beauty of nature that drives the intellect to reason toward unraveling its workings. <br /><br />The quote "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" can also be found in some of his writing <a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, which is where the following comes from: <br /><br /><i>"...those individuals to whom we owe the great creative achievements of science were all of them imbued with the truly religious conviction that this universe of ours is something perfect and susceptible to the rational striving for knowledge. If this conviction had not been a strongly emotional one and if those searching for knowledge had not been inspired by Spinoza's Amor Dei Intellectualis, they wouid [sic] hardly have been capable of that untiring devotion which alone enables man to attain his greatest achievements."</i>jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-44307059107331772752011-06-26T11:23:40.600-06:002011-06-26T11:23:40.600-06:00Re: "THAT is NOT religion or religious!!!&quo...Re: "THAT is NOT religion or religious!!!"<br /><br />I think your objection is due to a disagreement on what constitutes religion.<br /><br />Einstein's view is confusing because he looks past organized religion an scripture to identify what is religions.<br /><br />Einstein's view is difficult to parse, but my impression is that religion for him encompasses those things that motive and inspire.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-83603403662918425502011-06-26T11:00:13.493-06:002011-06-26T11:00:13.493-06:00.
I wonder what Einstein meant when he wrote, &quo....<br />I wonder what Einstein meant when he wrote, "Science without religion is lame"?<br />.<br />Does anyone know? For sure?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84789336998725397352011-06-26T10:02:37.924-06:002011-06-26T10:02:37.924-06:00bpabbott said, ""Science without religio...bpabbott said, ""Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."<br />-- Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941 US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)"<br /><br />I can agree with the second point, but the first point is only using religion to further science...it seems to me...as science is any person's desire to seek after their specific area or discipline...and THAT is NOT religion or religious!!!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-62077244273146440082011-06-26T09:56:10.142-06:002011-06-26T09:56:10.142-06:00Re: "Beauty is not science.''
Angie,...Re: "Beauty is not science.''<br /><br />Angie, my understanding is that this is the sentiment that Einsein was expressed in the first half of the sentence below.<br /><br />"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."<br />-- Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941 US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32763401900318801672011-06-26T09:54:07.169-06:002011-06-26T09:54:07.169-06:00Thanks for the clarification Pinky.Thanks for the clarification Pinky.Tim Polackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15292479938965452296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-47939133594387241472011-06-26T09:40:27.036-06:002011-06-26T09:40:27.036-06:00.
NOW, we get to communication theory...
.
Good po....<br /><i>NOW, we get to communication theory...</i><br />.<br />Good points, Angie.<br />.<br />There seems to be a lot of patrimony at this site. A good example has to do with the way TVD was able to put me down with my references to A. J. Ayer's ideas of Logical Positivism. If TVD posits something here, it must be valid! <br /><br />And so, with great respect and high regard for Tom's skill and knowledge, he is as fallible as any of us. And, he has as much right to qeuestion any of us as we have to question him. It's a good idea to give specufic citations rather than to point to some lengthy passage or an entire book as though it it the responsibility of the other to do the legwork.<br />.<br />Of all the considerations any historian worth his or her salt would have, to not put a circumstance or event in its historical context seems to be uppermost. Logical Positivism is one of the most influential ideas of the twentieth century and it has great bearing on our presemnt day thinking.<br />.<br />The historical context coming out of the nineteenth and coming into the twentieth century saw an explosion of metaphysical statements being made ranging all the way from ghosts to the Second Coming. some of it still lingers and probably will for many generations well into the future.<br />.<br /><br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77780508774428726342011-06-26T09:24:27.696-06:002011-06-26T09:24:27.696-06:00Thanks, Tim, for Jay's family background. It&#...Thanks, Tim, for Jay's family background. It's a context worth noting.Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-1700742167335874072011-06-26T08:34:36.802-06:002011-06-26T08:34:36.802-06:00Pinky stated, "... it is interesting how any ...Pinky stated, "... it is interesting how any of us can get misunderstood so easily. We give an example about something and as a result of the subject involved, some go off on a tangent which we never intended." NOW, we get to communication theory...<br /><br />The one who "goes off on a tangent" isn't trying to subvert the subject, as something is "connected" as to meaning, or value. And this is the point of the tangent. What one focuses on.<br /><br />If one "feels attacked", then one will miss the whole point of a particular conversation because all they will be hearing is "what they think they will hear". It is a defense mode. And we all can do it, if we do not trust the people that are trying to communicate something to us.<br /><br />Words, and concepts have various meanings and values. These are connected to memory in our brains. We cannot get away from this fact, other than become aware of our tendencies.<br /><br />And I think this is why so many will describe the same experience in so many different ways. Our brains correlate "things" to the connotation of those things...in human experience.<br /><br />This is how early childhood memories affect one's personality, or tendencies. And it is how we develop a concept of "God", if our family is a religious one. It is also why it is best to not raise a child with such a viewpoint, because the child will be seeking the 'affirmation of a parent" without pursuing their own interests...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-54907749754175449902011-06-26T07:58:21.266-06:002011-06-26T07:58:21.266-06:00... I guess I'm stumped as to why talk about t...<i>... I guess I'm stumped as to why talk about the Right as if they're doing some egregious thing. I personally think the left and right are in the wrong. :) So I guess it seems to me that it goes without saying they have a right to do it. In my mind, the better question might be does the left have the right to change such fundamental and seemingly obvious rights as to what constitutes marriage. There are an awful lot of good reasons that this can really screw up a society; see Europe. But now I've just gone where I shouldn't have....and that get's away from the main point of the blog not to mention posts; oh well, now you know where I stand.</i><br />.<br />Yup, we'll get shut down if we keep going on this point, you're correct on that one.<br />.<br />Well, I mostly agree with what you wrote. My purpose was misconstrued by TVD when he accused me of continuing my bias against "Christianists" and there's nothing to be done about that. He carries an extra measure of weight around here.<br />.<br />I gave the comments you protested as an example of what happens to throw our society out of balance. It's really not that anyone doesn't have a right to rock the boat--they do. The point I meant to be making is that these things are examples of what divides us here in American Society. We need to somehow reorganize our priorities in how we settle these questions. Should we continue to allow ourselves to be divided against each other based on theological or economic values? The question is not going to be answered here at this history site where the emphasis is on events and circumstances that culminated in the Founding Era. <br />.<br />But, on another note, it is interesting how any of us can get misunderstood so easily. We give an example about something and as a result of the subject involved, some go off on a tangent which we never intended.<br />.<br />You gotta be careful what you say sometimes.<br />.<br /><b>;<}</b><br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.com