tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post7546541538111733115..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Our Religious Founders: Forgotten or Intentionally Neglected?Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70290503773738792392015-06-30T15:42:05.422-06:002015-06-30T15:42:05.422-06:00Dreisbach:
"Fame has not smiled on founders ...Dreisbach:<br /><br />"Fame has not smiled on founders of few words or those who left an insufficient paper trail to inform or interest historians. There must be enough of an extant record with which students of history can work. A written record or historical narrative is vital for duly crediting a founder for his contributions. With considerable discomfort, Madison scribbled transcripts and copious notes of proceedings during the Constitutional Convention that, not surprisingly, recorded his contributions in a favorable light and assured his place in history. All the famous founders left enough words that, even two centuries after their demise, archivists still labor to collect and transcribe them, their papers filling many scores of published volumes.[18] Of particular value to historians are letters, journals, and diaries, which often provide a measure of a man’s character, and open a window into his motivations and aspirations. (“Without Jefferson’s letters,” Gordon S. Wood asked, “what would we know of his mind?”)[19]<br /><br />...<br /><br />George Mason of Virginia and John Witherspoon of New Jersey are examples of founders whose reputations may have been diminished in subsequent historical accounts because of gaps in the relevant documentary records. Mason, the principal draftsman of the influential Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776) and among the most voluble members of the Constitutional Convention, is survived by a dearth of papers, which have been collected in a mere three volumes.[20] As his first major biographer observed in the late nineteenth century, “His life never having been written, his papers having been lost and scattered,” it is, perhaps, no wonder that “justice has not been done to George Mason.” Mason’s biographers, unlike Washington’s, Jefferson’s, and Madison’s, have not had their subject’s extensive recollections and papers “before them” in which the subject’s leading role in legislative deliberations “is chiefly dwelt on” and emphasized.[21] Then there is the case of the Reverend Doctor John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation and an active member of over 120 committees in the Continental Congress. In Witherspoon’s case, the problem is not the lack of papers; rather, it concerns copious papers which were lost or destroyed. Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-17260416922710250942015-06-30T15:22:43.171-06:002015-06-30T15:22:43.171-06:00Religion was left to the states. Even The Godless ...Religion was left to the states. Even <i>The Godless Constitution</i> admits this; it just glosses over that key component, like a New York Times article that prints the truth, but buries it in the 16th paragraph continued on page Z68. [Indeed religious tests were left in place in many states, unaffected by the Constitution or the first Amendment.]<br /><br />As for Madison, he did indeed lose battles, such as on paid chaplains. Thus <br /><br /><i> “Madison did not carry the country along with Virginia’s sweeping separation of churches from the state: indeed, the country in some degree carried him.”</i><br /><br />is a valid counterargument re the over-reliance on Madison in jurisprudence. As for Jefferson, what he thought and wrote behind the scenes is of academic interest, but outside of Virginia, he fought none of these battles. Elsewhere in the essay, Dreisbach argues that historiography has over-emphasized Jefferson's importance and thoughts, mostly because so much of his correspondence remains.<br /><br />It's like looking for your keys under the streetlamp instead of where you dropped them, because the light's better.<br /><br />As for Roger Sherman, he should be put on our currency before most of this list.<br /><br />http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/women-10-dollar-bill-candidates<br /><br />That not one schoolkid in a thousand knows his name illustrates Dreisbach's argument.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-29910619962748242882015-06-30T14:41:57.484-06:002015-06-30T14:41:57.484-06:00Isn’t Dreisbach’s article a bit dated (2012)?
1)...Isn’t Dreisbach’s article a bit dated (2012)? <br /><br />1) Forgotten? Certainly no longer true with recent books for Roger Sherman, John Dickinson, John Jay, Richard Henry Lee, George Mason, Gouverneur Morris, Benjamin Rush, James Wilson, and John Witherspoon.<br /><br />2) Professor Hall has eloquently made his point about Supreme Court’s uses of Madison and Jefferson. But to state that, “The focus on these two Virginians is odd, if not counter-historical,” is neither “odd” nor “counter-historical.” Jefferson’s lack of physical presence is no argument at all. He was constantly (albeit the vagaries of trans-Atlantic communication) in touch with Madison while in Paris. Jefferson had three major concerns about the proposed Constitution: 1) the need for a Bill of Rights; 2) limits on presidential terms; and 3) fear that ed judiciary was too independent.<br /><br />So, in terms of religion, the original unamended Constitution was ratified with:<br />1) no religious test (Article VI, ¶ 3) for federal office-holding<br />2) allowance for Quakers and others (Amish, Mennonites, Moravian, etc.) to affirm, rather than swear, their oath of office<br />3) no recognition of Christianity, or any denomination, as the “established” national church<br /><br />To assert that, “Madison suffered decisive defeats in his efforts to shape the content of the religion provisions” is also not true. As Joseph Laconte wrote for the (conservative) Heritage Foundation (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2001/03/james-madison-and-religious-liberty) “As chairman of the House conference committee on the Bill of Rights, Madison's original draft was among the most ambitious: "the civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship...nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed...." Though somewhat less expansive in its protections, the final version--"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" --clearly bears the Madison stamp.”.<br /><br />But, as I and others have noted on AC before, probably the most compelling reason not to discount or dismiss the “theistic rationalist” Madison-Jefferson imprint on the First Amendment religion clauses, is the popular evangelical support for legislative efforts by the Baptist ministers Isaac Backus and John Leland. They stated on several occasions that support of religion by governments inevitably corrupted churches. From opposite ends of the religious spectrum, they all agreed that while religion was necessary for public morality, leading a virtuous or Christian life would be best achieved without any support or interference from government. <br />JMSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-37768846833010504892015-06-30T06:34:13.172-06:002015-06-30T06:34:13.172-06:00Ben, lovely to see you again, my friend! I think ...Ben, lovely to see you again, my friend! I think of you often.<br /><br /><br /><br />Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87523855992661476322015-06-29T18:38:05.311-06:002015-06-29T18:38:05.311-06:00Sherman ranks 2nd on the Separation of Church and ...Sherman ranks 2nd on the <a href="http://candst.tripod.com/founder1.htm" rel="nofollow">Separation of Church and State Home Page</a>bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.com