tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post7507730668485956151..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Is There an American Mind?Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23714604654277406622009-06-15T21:48:16.534-06:002009-06-15T21:48:16.534-06:00Oh, well. I was hoping some Pragmatists would sho...Oh, well. I was hoping some Pragmatists would show up to defend Dewey and Rawls and Progressivism and all that.<br /><br />I guess Prof. Guelzo sent them packing to the hills. I reckoned he would.<br /><br />Now that the results are in, I really do need to write him that fan letter. You too, Phil, since you've quoted him often around here.<br /><br />I also held the Guelzo essay under the noses of some East Coast Straussians in another forum, Phil. Same reaction. Crickets chirping. If you write him first, tell him that too. So many people are full of hot air, but he takes their breath away.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-79148275028564095472009-06-14T19:48:11.813-06:002009-06-14T19:48:11.813-06:00King, go here.King, go <a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386" rel="nofollow">here</a>.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-54674818687407519242009-06-14T19:21:54.225-06:002009-06-14T19:21:54.225-06:00anyone have Jon's email?anyone have Jon's email?King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-65458123628170197502009-06-13T20:02:08.979-06:002009-06-13T20:02:08.979-06:00Aw, Phil, I didn't exactly post this for you. ...Aw, Phil, I didn't exactly post this for you. And it's just excerpts. It's just a great piece of work and clarity on the history of American ideas, and ideals.<br /><br />But part of my excitement was that it might touch your heart or your head. I remember pretty much everything you've ever written here believe it or not, including you quoting Guelzo approvingly. You're a person, not just a name. I'm not Robert Duvall and you're not Billy Bob and this ain't The Apostle, but it's something like that.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-89424340161685924182009-06-13T19:33:55.124-06:002009-06-13T19:33:55.124-06:00.
So, Tom, how did you get Guelzo to give you the ....<br />So, Tom, how did you get Guelzo to give you the article?<br />.<br />Are we to have access to him here?<br />.<br />My respect for Guelzo it very high.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-83596555440931737432009-06-13T19:22:18.337-06:002009-06-13T19:22:18.337-06:00.
Professor Guelzo is the one who enticed me to re....<br />Professor Guelzo is the one who enticed me to really want to learn about American History through his lectures I watched over and over on DVD from The Teaching Company.<br /><br />I will carefully read the article he has provided us here.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-81108614526266811912009-06-13T15:41:05.645-06:002009-06-13T15:41:05.645-06:00Well, King, I'd rather it be "Guelzo'...Well, King, I'd rather it be "Guelzo's point" so I might stay out of the line of fire for a change. My butt hurts.<br /><br />Guelzo's point, his thesis, is that the Bible and the Enlightenment had come to an accommodation in the Founding and in the Scottish Enlightenment [as opposed to Voltaire's Enlightenment, which America rejected].<br /> <br />Therefore, our current "culture war" is a philosophical one, but between that accommodation in the Founding era and a new thing, a third thing, a <i>tertium quid</i>, a 20th century thing, Pragmatism.<br /><br />It makes me think we're barking up the right tree around here, that America can never understand where we're going unless we know where we've been. That Guelzo's essay can be understood and appreciated around here makes doing this blog worthwhile, and he offers a new light for us all to check our presuppositions. <br /><br />[I reckon I need to write him a fan letter.]Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58003362098106832272009-06-13T15:33:46.473-06:002009-06-13T15:33:46.473-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-20958562981179006402009-06-13T14:30:57.693-06:002009-06-13T14:30:57.693-06:00NCLB is not helping education at all. I taught at...NCLB is not helping education at all. I taught at the best HS in DC. It sends kids to the Ivy League all the time. I had many of these kids in my class. The do not know anything. Why? Exactly what Tom just stated, "The greatest good for the greatest number." It is really Marx in disguise. I could give you about 100 practical examples but just listen to one:<br /><br />I had some extra books in my class that a teacher would always send his ten kids to get. Why? They would not bring their books. Why? Because he gave them one. My kids always brought their books. Why? They knew I would call home if they did not have it and I was not giving one out. If the goal for the children to have books they giving them one is the worst thing you can do. NCLB actually encourages principals to write the teacher up if the kid does not have a book.<br /><br />It is all one big excuse and they all blame the teachers. Which does them no good when they get to college and cannot read, write, or think critically.<br /><br />I am not sure what the root to all this is but I have been suspicious of Dewey ever since I realized that if you did not spew out his theories in Education classes you would fail. If you do not teach the insane way they tell you then you are gone too. It is almost like a cult in some ways. You cannot question it.<br /><br />How this specific issue relates to Tom's overall point is a worthy discussion. I think I am going to read the linked essay and go from there.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58483166501234450472009-06-13T14:07:46.295-06:002009-06-13T14:07:46.295-06:00Well, I'd hate for this meta-argument for the ...Well, I'd hate for this meta-argument for the history of American thought to get sidetracked into a single current issue, but if it's true that<br /><br /><i>Essentially there exist incentives against gifted, talented, and high-performing students.</i>..<br /><br />Pragmatism might find that an acceptable [Utilitarian? Just? <i>Fair</i>? Therefore "Good?"] outcome if the <i>overall</i> level were raised.<br /><br />However, <a href="http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:VQnRdEGyj0EJ:www.bergen.edu/faculty/gcronk/Aristotle.ppt+aristotle+pursuit+of+excellence&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us" rel="nofollow">Aristotle for one would find it completely unacceptable</a>, that excellence were sacrificed for "fairness," that the gifted [or more precisely, more diligent, "high-performing" and therefore deserving] student should be penalized in any way for his excellence. That is not "fair," it is not just, in Aristotle's view.<br /><br />Neither is there any evidence the Founders would be down with it.<br /><br />Anyway, this small point does illustrate some of what Guelzo's getting at---that "the greatest good for the greatest number" may be a defensible philosophy of politics [and it's regnant at the moment], but such Pragmatism is a modern, post-Founding sentiment, and in the least we should be aware of that.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-83827226629146851172009-06-13T13:25:16.738-06:002009-06-13T13:25:16.738-06:00Regarding No Child Left Behind, whether intended o...Regarding <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Proposals_for_reform" rel="nofollow">No Child Left Behind</a>, whether intended or not, the practical implementation does appear to have produced some exampes where many high achivers are held back, so that others are not "<i>left behind</i>".<br /><br />Essentially there exist <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Incentives_against_gifted.2C_talented.2C_and_high-performing_students" rel="nofollow">incentives against gifted, talented, and high-performing students</a>.<br /><br />Of course, that was not the intent, nor is it a fair assesment of the program. In general, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Claims_made_in_favor_of_the_act" rel="nofollow">education in the US has been improved by NCLB</a>. However, I think <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Proposals_for_reform" rel="nofollow">more could be done</a>.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41243031730122075402009-06-13T12:48:52.240-06:002009-06-13T12:48:52.240-06:00Well, K of I, I've been waiting for weeks for ...Well, K of I, I've been waiting for weeks for this essay to come out from behind the subscription wall so our readers might catch Guelzo's larger themes:<br /><br />1) That the prevailing ["Harvard?"] narrative of American thought isn't necessarily the correct one;<br /><br />2) That we're influenced by our modern educations not just in the narrative, but by Pragmatism [particularly Dewey's and Rawls'] itself far more deeply than we realize, that its presuppositions have largely become our presuppositions, and that we don't even know how they differ from the Founders'.<br /><br />Or that they differ from the Founders' at all!<br /><br />Pragmatism is quite better thought-out than the banal "whatever!" of relativism<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism<br /><br />however, Guezelo makes a stunning point, that the architects of Pragmatism became<br /><br /><i>convinced that the pursuit of truth was what turned men into absolutists and sent them into battle with each other.</i>..<br /><br />Ouch. Better to not pursue it then!<br /><br />Now, it can be argued that Pragmatism necessarily leads to materialism, utilitarianism, and in its best moments Progressivism or communitarianism [a term less pejorative than "collectivism'].<br /><br />But religious belief could also lead to communitarianism through the "social gospel," like the Catholic Worker movement of the 1930s or today's Jim Wallis-style evangelicalism, so we could leave that part of the culture wars right now.<br /><br />Since our faithful commenter Phil Johnson speaks so well of him so often, I thought that Allen Guelzo might be a more effective mirror in which to examine our presuppositions than less accredited authors such as your correspondent. We like to tell ourselves that religious belief, "right" reason, natural law, and Pragmatism can all be roads to the same place, a happy polity with liberty and justice for all.<br /><br />Perhaps, perhaps not. What is justice, after all? What are rights? What is "good?" Do those roads all lead to the same answers? And as Guelzo disquietingly notes, does Pragmatism even permit us to ask?Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43417774050783747712009-06-13T10:42:28.881-06:002009-06-13T10:42:28.881-06:00Tom,
Pragmatism seems to be almost synonymous wit...Tom,<br /><br />Pragmatism seems to be almost synonymous with "Collectivism" from the little I have read on some comments you have made about all this. Dewey is the "Father of modern Education" which is so bad in so many ways is seems like it is set up to fail on purpose. <br /><br />No Child Left Behind, the crescendo of modern Education based on Dewey, is the greatest fallacy of all time. It allows two kids in every class to be brats and hold ALL children in that class behind. One spends most of his time repeating himself for the kids that feel that have a right to listen when they want because the know you have to repeat it or be gone(fired). <br /><br />I would love to learn more about all this. It is hard to follow when I have little background in this line of thought. Maybe a simple explanation of how pragmatism is different from right reason. Good post! I think you are on to something. <br /><br />I have issues with the Evangelical Christian notion of moral absolutes but also think moral relativism is no answer. I think the solution my lie in understanding the difference between morals and ethics. I have given some thought to this but have come to no real conclusions. <br /><br />I think Romans 1:19 and 2:14-15 may be a start in that they imply that one can understand God and natural law apart from the Bible through nature and conscience.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-57525310459194428592009-06-13T07:51:18.675-06:002009-06-13T07:51:18.675-06:00This is a heady discussion
Ultimately, America ha...This is a heady discussion<br /><br />Ultimately, America has to survive whether we are a predominantly religious people one day or a whether we mostly lose our faith on another day.<br /><br /> <br />Pragmatist or Progressive, I should hope that the underpinnings of the country, the shared values and the ability and will to simply tolerate each others views and live in peace will prevail.<br /><br />Daniel<br />Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.comDaniel Clay Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11473371720509410608noreply@blogger.com