tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post7160900638060489040..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Why Socinianism Matters to the American FoundingBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-52313039697609608732019-06-29T20:45:01.277-06:002019-06-29T20:45:01.277-06:00Whatever kind of religious zeal JM might have had ...Whatever kind of religious zeal JM might have had when he was younger, there is no evidence of him pursuing seminary like studies at Princeton. """"<br /><br /> Colonial colleges were seminaries. <br /><br />"Educated by Presbyterian clergymen, Madison, as a student at Princeton (1769-1772), seems to have developed a "transient inclination" to enter the ministry. In a 1773 letter to a college friend he made the zealous proposal that the rising stars of his generation renounce their secular prospects and "publicly . . . declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." <br />https://www.loc.gov/loc/madison/hutson-paper.html<br /><br />"At his death, some years after this, his minister—the Rev. Mr. Jones—and some of his neighbours openly expressed their conviction, that, <b>from his conversation and bearing during the latter years of his life</b>, he must be considered as receiving the Christian system to be divine." [Bold face mine]<br />-old churches.<br /><br />It would appear meade himself understood this to be about Christ. So, JM was orthodox twice, but not in the middle? That's weak.<br />Like i said before, he suppressed his faith along with many others people.<br /><br />Remember, he wrote "divine author of our blessed religion " for GW in 1st inaugural.<br /><br />He never used that himself. I think he wrote it because he knew GW believed it and he believed that himself and could get away with it without vetting himself. <br /><br />Also, he called himself a Christian not a unitarian.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-37953106500884778782019-06-29T06:28:41.308-06:002019-06-29T06:28:41.308-06:00OFT: Whatever kind of religious zeal JM might have...OFT: Whatever kind of religious zeal JM might have had when he was younger, there is no evidence of him pursuing seminary like studies at Princeton. As noted above Witherspoon taught Madison and his students his Scottish Common sense philosophy. And after that Madison's friendship with "those of infidel principles" (Jefferson) led him to likewise speak about God in generic philosophical language for the rest of his life.<br /><br />That, among other reasons, is why I believe George Ticknor's testimony.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10732660105126701682019-06-28T21:53:51.575-06:002019-06-28T21:53:51.575-06:00I do not believe Madison entered with any intentio...<br />I do not believe Madison entered with any intention of becoming a minister. It is bad history to assume he did without some additional evidence.""""<br /><br />Lol. To be a minister was his plan. That's common knowledge. He quit when he realized he couldn't speak well. That's why he was tutored for another year, to know hebrew<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48848131623373033712019-06-28T21:50:42.934-06:002019-06-28T21:50:42.934-06:00In Madison's time, I believe it's very few...In Madison's time, I believe it's very few. At first, perhaps many. That every American college was still a seminary by 1750 or so is unsupportable, and one of David Barton's worst errors.""""<br /><br /><br />"As is well-known, the primary purpose in the establishment of all the colonial colleges, with the possible exception of the college of Philadelphia and kings college, wss to train ministers. This purpose we have seen, they fulfilled satisfactory until past the middle of the eighteenth century."<br /><br />-The Rise of Theological Schools in America<br />William Warren Sweet, Divinity school, univ. Of Chicago. <br />Church History<br />Vol. 6, No. 3 (Sep., 1937), pp. 260-273 (14 pages<br /><br />Google it. You'll see the graduation rates for ministers decline during the revolution. Up till then, Princeton was a seminary. You're wrong about Barton too.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32796507326064496402019-06-28T07:56:20.905-06:002019-06-28T07:56:20.905-06:00"David Holmes who is the preeminent expert of..."David Holmes who is the preeminent expert of late 18th Century American Anglicanism says it was the more statistically minded folks in that church who didn't kneel when praying."<br /><br />LOL. Why we need editors. "deistically" not "statistically." Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-34040164736412348532019-06-28T05:36:05.310-06:002019-06-28T05:36:05.310-06:00Yup it was Noll, Hatch and Marsden, and then Fraze...Yup it was Noll, Hatch and Marsden, and then Frazer who pointed out that Witherspoon taught his students his Scottish Common Sense Enlightenment ideas that were a particular kind of natural right theory (discovered by reason).<br /><br />No evidence that he was their Calvinistic theology instructor. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-49587260559436419382019-06-28T03:59:52.074-06:002019-06-28T03:59:52.074-06:00What percentage of the attendees at College of New...What percentage of the attendees at College of New Jersey [now Princeton] became clergymen?<br /><br />In Madison's time, I believe it's very few. At first, perhaps many. That every American college was still a seminary by 1750 or so is unsupportable, and one of David Barton's worst errors.<br /><br />I do not believe Madison entered with any intention of becoming a minister. It is bad history to assume he did without some additional evidence.<br />Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55035361478544790852019-06-27T15:33:16.206-06:002019-06-27T15:33:16.206-06:00Neither Madison nor anyone else studied theology u...<br />Neither Madison nor anyone else studied theology under Witherspoon at Princeton. Rather they studied his Scottish Enlightenment Political Philosophy.""<br /><br />This is a false statement because out of the<br />250 ministers ordained from 1758 to 1789, 120 went to Princeton and most of those guys didn't have personal tutoring before ordination, but Madison did have personal tutoring, which included theology, law, ethics and Hebrew. <br /><br />All the colleges and "log colleges" before the revolution were seminaries.<br /><br />James Madison went to a Presbyterian seminary that taught orthodox beliefs and his best friend called him orthodox. <br /><br />Your insinuation that Madison didn't become Presbyterian, is refuted because other students didn't become Presbyterian, including his best friend William Bradford <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-62935207723438630842019-06-27T05:23:35.682-06:002019-06-27T05:23:35.682-06:00Neither Madison nor anyone else studied theology u...Neither Madison nor anyone else studied theology under Witherspoon at Princeton. Rather they studied his Scottish Enlightenment Political Philosophy.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-28797554093310054542019-06-26T19:53:15.507-06:002019-06-26T19:53:15.507-06:00I don't know what you mean by this""...I don't know what you mean by this"""<br /><br />Maybe his parents didn't want that.<br /><br />Madison never went to Presbyterian seminary"""<br /><br />Princeton was designed as a seminary. Where do u think he was learning theology under Witherspoon after his undergrad?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-34053079256845383342019-06-26T13:28:57.066-06:002019-06-26T13:28:57.066-06:00"This doesn't follow because of his famil..."This doesn't follow because of his family connections."<br /><br />I don't know what you mean by this. Whatever he was considering when young, Madison never went to Presbyterian seminary or gave up his affiliation with the Anglican-Episcopalian. There is also part of Bishop Meade's statement on Madison's friends with those of "infidel principles." And Meade said Madison didn't kneel when praying. George Washington, if I'm not mistaken also had people observe this about him.<br /><br />David Holmes who is the preeminent expert of late 18th Century American Anglicanism says it was the more statistically minded folks in that church who didn't kneel when praying.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-37027164038971544922019-06-26T12:14:31.381-06:002019-06-26T12:14:31.381-06:00 Jonathan Rowe said...
"His best friend for ...<br /><br /> Jonathan Rowe said...<br /><br />"His best friend for 7yrs said he was orthodox and he had to be to get into a Presbyterian seminary."<br /><br />And yet he never left his nominal affiliation with the Anglicans-Episcopalians""""<br /><br /><br />This doesn't follow because of his family connections. <br /><br />Bradford knew JM more than Meade or anyone else. And u had to be orthodox to enter a Presbyterian seminary. <br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41352460819834824702019-06-26T12:10:34.063-06:002019-06-26T12:10:34.063-06:00Jonathan Rowe said...
No OFT. Meade says JM was n...Jonathan Rowe said...<br /><br />No OFT. Meade says JM was not orthodox. Rather he was fill in the blank (Christian-Deist, unitarian, theistic rationalist).""<br /><br />All he writes is this, "I was never at Mr. Madison's but once, and then our conversation took such a turn—though not designed on my part—as to call forth some expressions and arguments which left the impression on my mind that his creed was not strictly regulated by the Bible"<br /><br />He didn't quote what he said, so how do u know what he meant? He could be referring to a variety of biblical subjects that have nothing to do with theology or the person of Christ, or it could be Meade was heterodox or even mistaken. Or, that meade did a coverup, or something to do with Episcopalian articles of faith. <br /><br />Either way, no one knows. <br /><br />Other evidence, including that of his pastor and neighbors:<br /><br />"At his death, some years after this, his minister—the Rev. Mr. Jones—and some of his neighbours openly expressed their conviction, that, from his conversation and bearing during <b>the latter years of his life</b>, he must be considered as receiving the Christian system to be divine." [Bold face mine]<br /><br />It's possible you are correct, but it's based on scanty evidence, and from a guy who burned his letters to William Bradford. James Madison was a loser in my mind for what he did to the country, and seems like a bitter and angry man because he was hiding something. Wonder what Bill F. thinks of JM.Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9858292724132347942019-06-26T08:23:27.988-06:002019-06-26T08:23:27.988-06:00No OFT. Meade says JM was not orthodox. Rather he ...No OFT. Meade says JM was not orthodox. Rather he was fill in the blank (Christian-Deist, unitarian, theistic rationalist).<br /><br />http://jonrowe.blogspot.com/2007/09/bishop-meade-on-james-madisons-creed.htmlJonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-26696584330033164302019-06-26T05:58:20.209-06:002019-06-26T05:58:20.209-06:00"His best friend for 7yrs said he was orthodo..."His best friend for 7yrs said he was orthodox and he had to be to get into a Presbyterian seminary."<br /><br />And yet he never left his nominal affiliation with the Anglicans-Episcopalians.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-59592788567785577742019-06-26T05:56:17.403-06:002019-06-26T05:56:17.403-06:00"Channing is useful because he put into words..."Channing is useful because he put into words what American unitarians believed. If you want to argue unitarianism was different in 1776 or 1789, then that's valid.<br /><br />But I don't think you are."<br /><br />Jefferson on Channing (and Priestley and Price) is also useful. That's coming up.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-3334933510689209532019-06-26T02:00:47.782-06:002019-06-26T02:00:47.782-06:00These were called "commonplace books," w...These were called "commonplace books," where people would transcribe stuff they read for future reference. Nothing they wrote should be taken as an endorsement or what they personally believed. Think of it as bookmarks on your browser."""<br /><br />This statement is misleading because most of them had personal devotions in their commonplace books, including JM. Here's Madison's commonplace book where he calls himself wicked:<br /><br /><br />"I know a Man, reputed moderate, just & devout, who is a Mortal Enemy to Auricular confession. And why? Is he conscious of some extraordinary & atrocious Qualities? or does he desire to appear much better than he really is? People who pretend to Religion cannot help confessing in general that they are Sinners; but they conceal or disown all Particulars. Why should I be so unwilling to confess even my Particular faults to men? Since they have the same faults or Equivalent. They may well admire my Sincerity or (if you will) my Impudence; but they cannot be surprized at my Wickedness. I am Humble before God, but confident before Men."<br /><br />-Commonplace Book, 1759-1772.<br /><br />You can't say nothing they wrote in those books they didn't believe in. That's nuts.<br /><br />His best friend for 7yrs said he was orthodox and he had to be to get into a Presbyterian seminary.<br /><br />In fact, JM said he was orthodox by affirming biblical inerrancy:<br /><br /><br /><br />"At the same time his ingenious and plausible defence of parliamentary authority carries in it such defects and misrepresentations, as confirm me in political orthodoxy—after the same manner as the specious arguments of Infidels have established [reinforced] the faith of inquiring Christians."<br /><br />-To William Bradford Jr., July 1, 1774<br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23906866903895216992019-06-25T20:37:02.817-06:002019-06-25T20:37:02.817-06:00Blogger Our Founding Truth said...
Below, has much...<i>Blogger Our Founding Truth said...<br />Below, has much more weight, legally, than someone's opinion:<br /><br />Gospels.<br /><br />Mat. Ch 1st Pollution[:] Christ did by the power of his Godhead purify our nature from all the pollution of our Ancestors v. 5. &c <br /><br />"Christ's divinity appears by St. John, ch. XX. v. 28."<br />"Resurrection testified and witnessed by the Apostles. Acts, ch. IV. v. 33."<br /><br />-Madison's "Notes on Commentary on the Bible" found in The Papers of James Madison, p. 51-59. Vol. I. 16 Mar 1751 - 16 Dec. 1779. Edited by William T. Hutchinson and William M. E. Rachal. 1962, by the University of Chicago Press. </i><br /><br /><br />These were called "commonplace books," where people would transcribe stuff they read for future reference. Nothing they wrote should be taken as an endorsement or what they personally believed. Think of it as bookmarks on your browser.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85279397161099006572019-06-25T20:32:37.888-06:002019-06-25T20:32:37.888-06:00Blogger Jonathan Rowe said...
"Story was born...<i>Blogger Jonathan Rowe said...<br />"Story was born in 1779 and Sparks in 1789, making them completely irrelevant here."<br /><br />And yet your W.E. Channing was born in 1780. Not being fair with your standard of scrutiny. Tisk tisk. I'm not going to call you out over this on the frontpage but I think I will do a front page post on Jefferson & Channing.<br /><br />June 24, 2019 at 12:33 PM</i><br /><br />Channing is useful because he put into words what American unitarians believed. If you want to argue unitarianism was different in 1776 or 1789, then that's valid.<br /><br />But I don't think you are.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13415992616497894802019-06-24T16:11:55.683-06:002019-06-24T16:11:55.683-06:00Below, has much more weight, legally, than someone...Below, has much more weight, legally, than someone's opinion:<br /><br />Gospels.<br /><br />Mat. Ch 1st Pollution[:] Christ did by the power of his Godhead purify our nature from all the pollution of our Ancestors v. 5. &c <br /><br />"Christ's divinity appears by St. John, ch. XX. v. 28."<br />"Resurrection testified and witnessed by the Apostles. Acts, ch. IV. v. 33."<br /><br />-Madison's "Notes on Commentary on the Bible" found in The Papers of James Madison, p. 51-59. Vol. I. 16 Mar 1751 - 16 Dec. 1779. Edited by William T. Hutchinson and William M. E. Rachal. 1962, by the University of Chicago Press. Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45995193915237535292019-06-24T16:02:45.299-06:002019-06-24T16:02:45.299-06:00June 24, 2019 at 2:21 PM
Jonathan Rowe said...
...June 24, 2019 at 2:21 PM<br /><br /> Jonathan Rowe said...<br /><br />You are non-sequituring all over the place man.<br /><br /><br /><br />How?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-15168724257372145062019-06-24T15:17:06.337-06:002019-06-24T15:17:06.337-06:00You are non-sequituring all over the place man. You are non-sequituring all over the place man. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45138715629198573402019-06-24T14:21:46.980-06:002019-06-24T14:21:46.980-06:00"Is it Trinitarianism, Arianism, Socinianism?..."Is it Trinitarianism, Arianism, Socinianism? Is it salvation by faith or works also, by free grace or by will, &c., &c.""<br /><br /><br />This note by JM proves he didn't ascribe one way or the other because he rejected salvation by works in his memorial. So, this is not evidence JM was unitarian. <br /><br />JM quoted the deity of Christ and bishop meade didn't quote what JM said to him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-151852255487397962019-06-24T14:07:57.166-06:002019-06-24T14:07:57.166-06:00Bishop Meade also said that he thought Madison'...Bishop Meade also said that he thought Madison's creed was not (me paraphrasing from memory) "strictly regulated by the Bible" and such was probably due to friends of his who had "infidel principles" ("of whom there were many") (i.e., Thomas Jefferson!)."":"<br /><br />This doesn't count because he called him a Christian, and Meade was an evangelical. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-50925682168926664532019-06-24T13:50:18.456-06:002019-06-24T13:50:18.456-06:00The evidence he's orthodox is he quoted the de...The evidence he's orthodox is he quoted the deity of Christ. He had to have taken communion. Whoever finds the evidence gets a GI badge because no one has presented that infoOur Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.com