tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post6940963668188199956..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: Was John Jay a Christian Hypocrite?Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71606160908650510962010-10-03T15:37:32.943-06:002010-10-03T15:37:32.943-06:00Jon,
I rank Jay as a "key founder" not ...Jon,<br /><br />I rank Jay as a "key founder" not because he is in the top tier, but because he was a critical participant both in the resolution of the Revolution and the foundation of the early Republic. Aside from his role as a co-author of The Federalist, Jay was an incredibly important diplomat (re: the "Jay Treaty" with Britain) and he was the very first Chief Justice of the United States. Jay was also a presidential contender for the Federalist Party -- he only bowed out because of his wife's ill health. In addition, he served as President of the Continental Congress in 1778-79, <br /><br />In his political work at the state level, Jay was not only a governor of New York State, he was a persistent and ardent abolitionist, finally leading that state to begin to abolish slavery in 1799. Jay exemplified the Federalist and northern approach to emancipation at the state level. <br /><br />So, while definitely not a Washington or a Hamilton, Jay meets the test, I think, for being a "key founder."<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />MarkMark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77831643421582910832010-09-28T15:30:19.762-06:002010-09-28T15:30:19.762-06:00But I do think I worded the hypocrite claim carefu...<i>But I do think I worded the hypocrite claim carefully. If you read my comments here closely on the hypocrite claim you see I never accused him of so being just raised the issue.</i><br /><br />Uh huh. It's an unfair technique to insinuate what the evidence does not prove. Are the Tea Parties racist? Is Obama a socialist?<br /><br /><i>It's the folks that do have a problem with this kind of Christianity who would say, "he wasn't being a good Anglican."</i><br /><br />I don't know who these "folks" are. You write zillions of posts with them in mind, but as Russ pointed out, even John Macarthur had the same doubts as John Jay did. At what point does the doctrinal McCarthyism stop?<br /><br />"Do you now or have you ever believed that Jesus was not eternally begotten?"<br /><br />"Do you now or have you ever doubted any of the 39 Articles or the Westminster Confession?"<br /><br />As Ms. Bruno notes, what someone believed [or doubted] at some point in their life doesn't tell us a whole lot.<br /><br />I mean dude, when it comes to Protestantism, you're more Catholic than the pope and more inquisitive than the Inquisition. The Founding wasn't about that, and frankly, even today's culture wars aren't. Right now, the leading proponent of an American "political theology" is a Mormon.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10263051148473318322010-09-28T15:03:42.066-06:002010-09-28T15:03:42.066-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87765630220280759052010-09-28T13:32:55.450-06:002010-09-28T13:32:55.450-06:00I am a practicing Catholic and don't understan...I am a practicing Catholic and don't understand why some insist on clinging to the supposed faith of the founding fathers. Whether most were orthodox Christians or not, that shouldn't change an individual's faith nor does it change the fact that we are free to worship as we chose.<br /><br />As for the founding fathers themselves, I believe it is difficult to ascertain what they truly believed. Faith and religious conviction evolve over a lifetime. No one can say for certain what a certain person believed at a certain moment in time.<br /><br />http://historywasneverlikethat.blogspot.com/Theresa Brunohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10934415969408365200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-38094864309518030142010-09-28T09:44:27.606-06:002010-09-28T09:44:27.606-06:00Tom,
This is more than Jay taking an issue with t...Tom,<br /><br />This is more than Jay taking an issue with the Anglicans on the matter of eternal Sonship. Rather, this is him saying "I don't give a shit about creeds, just the Bible. And that's where I find the Trinity." That might make one a good evangelical orthodox Christian and perhaps a good Baptist. But, arguably, it makes one not so good an Anglican. That is, if one assumes church is more about heritage and club membership. To a lot of believers today and in the FE that's exactly what church was.<br /><br />I don't have a particular problem with this kind of religious worship; I don't have a problem with cafeteria Catholicism or any form of Christianity. It's the folks that do have a problem with this kind of Christianity who would say, "he wasn't being a good Anglican." Perhaps I should have worded my comment more carefully.<br /><br />But I do think I worded the hypocrite claim carefully. If you read my comments here closely on the hypocrite claim you see I never accused him of so being just raised the issue. And again, it's the folks who would say, if you don't believe in your churches official doctrines, you should leave or you are a hypocrite who likely would or should affirmatively answer that question on Jay.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-81981238429843654882010-09-27T15:15:05.624-06:002010-09-27T15:15:05.624-06:00Insinuating John Jay was a hypocrite is a mighty c...Insinuating John Jay was a hypocrite is a mighty charge. If being a "good Anglican" or a "good <i>x</i>" means accepting every bit of doctrine without question, there is pretty much no such thing as a "good <i>x</i>."<br /><br />Catholic archbishop Murphy Cardinal O'Connor believes in "universal reconciliation," although "hell" is normative Catholic theology. But O'Connor's still a Catholic in good standing---he's a cardinal!<br /><br />According to Russ, John MacArthur's been on both sides of the issue. I don't hesitate to say he was a "good <i>x</i>" either way.<br /><br />You're tilting at a technique you say Lillback uses, but your method is no more tenable the other way. And if Russ is right, questioning John Jay's Trinitarianism is completely inapplicable here. It deserves at least far more investigation of the original Jay letter before breaking out the "h-word" [hypocrite].Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-5874052252649138772010-09-27T12:59:56.793-06:002010-09-27T12:59:56.793-06:00I'd like to read the whole letter to Miller in...I'd like to read the whole letter to Miller in context. So far I've found pieces of it only.<br /><br />When Jay writes -- <br /><br />"I therefore consider the Position of being at least of questionable Orthodoxy."<br /><br />-- it depends on what he means by "the Position." Does "the Position" mean "the Trinity" -- at first glance that's what I thought. Or does it mean those justifications for it that include doctrines like "eternally begotten" that are hard to comprehend and understandably disputed. <br /><br />In any event, I don't dispute Jay was an orthodox Christian. Though, if he were an anti-creedal orthodox Trinitarian evangelical, that still doesn't fit with being a good Anglican. And that fits with my argument about churches being used as social clubs and not as surrogates for determining an FFs religious belief.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-81145740786136932702010-09-27T12:36:48.717-06:002010-09-27T12:36:48.717-06:00But I see his quote just as much supporting a fall...<i> But I see his quote just as much supporting a fall into Arianism or some other kind of non-Trinitarianism than maintaining belief in Trinity without belief in Christ's eternal Sonship.<br /></i><br /><br />If Russ is correct, that subjective statement doesn't hold, Jon. This deserves closer study. It's a big gulf between a fine point of doctrine and nonTrinitarianism.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-31225418823437811552010-09-27T11:19:28.114-06:002010-09-27T11:19:28.114-06:00.
2) Blasphemy. An offense against God and religio....<br /><i>2)<b> Blasphemy</b>. An offense against God and religion is that of blasphemy against the Almighty, by denying His being or providence, or by contumelious reproaches of Christ. Also all profane scoffing at the holy scriptures, or exposing them to contempt and ridicule. This is punished by fine and imprisonment, or infamous corporeal punishment.</i><br />.<br />I think of blasphemy as the act of speaking on behalf of God--and not in denying His being or providence which is, entirely, something else.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22732781471569464822010-09-27T09:15:00.252-06:002010-09-27T09:15:00.252-06:00Russ,
Many thanks for this. I just wrote a respo...Russ,<br /><br />Many thanks for this. I just wrote a response that got eaten up.<br /><br />So this will be shorter. You may be right on what Jay really meant. But I see his quote just as much supporting a fall into Arianism or some other kind of non-Trinitarianism than maintaining belief in Trinity without belief in Christ's eternal Sonship.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-6119395602565295742010-09-26T15:39:00.299-06:002010-09-26T15:39:00.299-06:00I think Jay is being misread here, as is the natur...I think Jay is being misread here, as is the nature of evangelicalism. The specific point of doctrine Jay was questioning, usually called the eternal generation of the son, does not entail a denial of the trinity as such. Jay begins by explicitly affirming the trinity as biblical, and doesn't seem to deny that there is an eternal second person of trinity, only whether that second person is eternally begotten as the son.<br /><br />The Westminster confession explicitly affirms eternal generation of the son, but subscription to the confession in America was a matter of affirming the "system of doctrine" contained in the confession, not every detail. Anglicans were even looser on the details of the 39 Articles. Really, in this history of the doctrine of the trinity, this seems fairly minor compared to, say, the West's (Catholic and Protestant) insertion of filioque into the creed.<br /><br />This was not a strange quirk of Jay, either. Given the date, I assume Samuel Miller (of Princeton Seminary) was looking for material for a book he published in 1823, _Letters on the Eternal Sonship of Christ: Addressed to The Rev. Professor Stuart, of Andover_ (available on google books).<br /><br />It's really the very nature of evangelicalism to stress the authority of scripture alone over any creed or confession (beyond what the first two generations of reformers would have considered appropriate). Even those who strongly defend the doctrine do not do so primarily on appealing to the creed, but by biblical exegesis. Eternal generation of the son has been subsequently denied by several later evangelicals and fundamentalists, including Oliver Buswell (who served as President of Wheaton), self-appointed orthodoxy watchdog Walter Martin of the Christian Research Institute, and for a long time, John MacArthur (who eventually changed his position), and Robert Reymond (PCA minister who taught (teaches?) at Knox Theological Seminary, founded by D. James Kennedy, who I'm sure everyone on this blog is familiar with). Many fundamentalists still fight over the issue, usually termed "eternal sonship."Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16560500181129571198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-11958194281604242952010-09-25T19:24:49.949-06:002010-09-25T19:24:49.949-06:00I don't know how far John Jay and the first ti...I don't know how far John Jay and the first tier of FFs relied upon Blackstone, but Blackstone defined: <br /><br />1) <b>Basis of Judicial Oaths</b>. The belief in a future state of rewards and punishments, the entertaining just ideas of the attributes of the Supreme Being, and a firm persuausion that he superintends and will finally compensate every action in human life, are the grand foundation of judicial oaths, which call God to witness the truth of those facts, which perhaps may only be known to him and the party attesting. All moral evidence, all confidence in human veracity [are] weakened by apostasy, and overthrown by total infidelity.<br /><br />2) <b>Blasphemy</b>. An offense against God and religion is that of blaphemy against the Almighty, by denying His being or providence, or by contumelious reproaches of Christ. Also all profane scoffing at the holy scriptures, or exposing them to contemot and ridicule. This is punished by fine and imprisonment, or infamous coporeal punishment.<br /><br />If the doubtful expression of certain aspects of the Trinity which were of "guestionable orthodoxy" fell within the purview of "contumelious reproaches of Christ," then that could reasonably be counted as one of the "Offences Against God and Religion." (See <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Never-Before-History-Americas-Inspired/dp/0964210428#_" rel="nofollow"><i>Never Before in History: America's Inspired Birth</i></a>, pg. 62, by Gary Amos & Richard Gardiner.Ray Sollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07950061062767093373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22202877304873625112010-09-25T18:41:56.234-06:002010-09-25T18:41:56.234-06:00Not Lillback who said anything nasty. As far as I...Not Lillback who said anything nasty. As far as I know, he has never acknowledged me in a public forum. Rather it was Richard Gardiner, the person linked in Ray's comment.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-52590065384413169672010-09-25T18:23:05.926-06:002010-09-25T18:23:05.926-06:00If Lillback is being nasty toward you, that is ind...If Lillback is being nasty toward you, that is indeed a discredit to him.<br /><br />I would say, though, that the "hypocrite" argument has merit in SOME cases. For instance, Washington's case. I know we differ on that, but I do think that Washington was a man who took integrity and honesty VERY seriously.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-3499458716454774092010-09-25T17:52:35.935-06:002010-09-25T17:52:35.935-06:00Jon, would that be the same pastor Richard Gardine...Jon, would that be the same pastor Richard Gardiner who is mentioned in this news article, <a href="Minister%20reprises%20'under%20God'%20sermon" rel="nofollow">Minister reprises 'under God' sermon</a>, of eight years ago?Ray Sollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07950061062767093373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87393171348917270772010-09-25T13:30:13.608-06:002010-09-25T13:30:13.608-06:00Brian,
You may be right that I should have chosen...Brian,<br /><br />You may be right that I should have chosen my words more carefully. I meant to assert the social dynamic thing existed in more than a nominal number of Founders and to get at what they really believed, we need more that just church affiliation.<br /><br />I also would give Jay the benefit of the doubt and term him a "Christian" according to your criteria.<br /><br />I'm actually stressing this dynamic because I've witnessed and personally been involved in some debates where church doctrine is raised as a surrogate for an FFs religious belief. And when the social club dynamic is raised, a common response is "you mean they were hypocrites." I'm thinking of, among others, Lillback and also a fellow named Richard Gardiner. He's not a bad historian, but he shoots too far with certain claims. (And he can be quite nasty too when he posts under his pseudonyms.) Ray Soller and I have both been subject to his ad hominems.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30952457115792844442010-09-25T13:17:38.154-06:002010-09-25T13:17:38.154-06:00Jon, you've established that Jay had doubts ab...Jon, you've established that Jay had doubts about church creeds and certain aspects of doctrinal orthodoxy. Yet, given the criteria of John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10, we can still safely conclude that John Jay was a Christian. <br /><br />I agree that Bradford's 52/55 claim (which others continue to parrot) is a fundamentally flawed claim, for the reasons you cite. However, you commit a fallacy yourself when you argue that a majority of the FFs associated with Christian denominations for "social reasons." It's undoubtedly true that SOME FFs did, but you can't say that most of them did. To make such a claim, you would need some kind of evidence that speaks to each individual's motive. I don't think you have enough evidence to use the word "majority."Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-39498016717530835582010-09-25T13:11:44.367-06:002010-09-25T13:11:44.367-06:00John Jay's a hypocrite for saying, hey, these ...John Jay's a hypocrite for saying, hey, these Christian unitarians might have a point there about the Trinity not being supported by the Bible?<br /><br />Whenever Christians break the stereotype of being mindless fideistic robots, they're not Christian?<br /><br />Christians are as human as most normal people. They doubt, they sin.<br /><br />You have a point about Lillback using Anglican orthodoxy and trying to apply that to Washington's mind, but John Jay checking out the claims of unitarianism is miles away from the discussion of Christianity and the Founding.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com