tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post5931245084722574408..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Ed Brayton and "Christian Nation Falsehoods"Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71579748876291061392009-05-18T19:32:00.000-06:002009-05-18T19:32:00.000-06:00I will add though that there is more than one way ...I will add though that there is more than one way to analyze the religion & the Founding states v. fed govt. angle and the debate has been raging since day one.<br /><br />Yes, Brayton is aware that as originally conceived religion was left to the states; he knows the record very well (well enough that he immediately caught the few brainfarts when he interviewed me, like for instance when I meant to say Madison as an author of the Federalist Papers but accidentially said Jefferson).<br /><br />There are some on both the Left AND the Right who see the absence of God and ban on religious tests as standing for something more secular in principle than the forces of religious correctness desired. Indeed you can find lots of quotes from prominent religious conservatives of the time inveighing against the Constitution because of its Godless, secular nature. <br /><br />As noted, there is more than one way to view things; but that certainly is a viable perspective.<br /><br />Re Henry I think his biggest problem with the Constitution was that it was too powerful and centralized; he probably had MORE of a problem with that then the lack of religious or Christian language. Henry wanted the Constitution to be done in the name of "we the states" NOT "we the people." It probably sounded too Rousseau for him.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87018097031244009402009-05-18T18:22:00.000-06:002009-05-18T18:22:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-86800302441588238122009-05-18T18:16:00.000-06:002009-05-18T18:16:00.000-06:00I'm really busy until tomorrow. Calculating grade...I'm really busy until tomorrow. Calculating grades before a deadline tomorrow morning.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-66409958248276097122009-05-18T17:27:00.000-06:002009-05-18T17:27:00.000-06:00Anyone other than Tom and I want to jump in here? ...Anyone other than Tom and I want to jump in here? I had high hopes for this post.Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78738090893032387752009-05-18T17:22:00.000-06:002009-05-18T17:22:00.000-06:00Indeed, Brad. You did use "scare quotes."
Of cou...Indeed, Brad. You did use "scare quotes."<br /><br />Of course, Brayton, polemicist and culture warrior that he is, did not.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-65229992899243277232009-05-18T17:09:00.000-06:002009-05-18T17:09:00.000-06:00Just FYI (you probably already put this together) ...Just FYI (you probably already put this together) but the "Christian Nation Falsehoods" was HIS title, not mine.Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-35169040702243996302009-05-18T17:03:00.000-06:002009-05-18T17:03:00.000-06:00You got that right, Brad. But I'm not as interest...You got that right, Brad. But I'm not as interested in Ed's errors as he is in hunting down those of others [I see him on Christian-y websites in the comments sections]. Still, if Mr. Brayton's errors drop onto this blog, it seems proper to point them out. <br /><br />But his triumphs over bad arguments here and there don't amount to much, especially if he himself is going to err in debunking them. And there are plenty of good arguments like those of early Supreme Court justices like Joseph Wilson, Joseph Story and John Marshall that aren't so easily disposed of, or that the men like Hooker, Locke and Sidney---the latter two Mr. Brayton mentions in his OP, quoting Jefferson---who influenced the Founding were thoroughly steeped in Christian thought.<br /><br />Yes, unfortunately there are inauthentic pro-religion quotes about the Founding bounding around the internet, and correcting his anonymous commenters or hunting down underinformed bloggers is proper in its way. We all have our little jihads, I suppose.<br /><br />But to label them "Christian nation falsehoods" is mere culture war invective, and dumbs down the actual search for truth.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43311056321810283652009-05-18T15:59:00.000-06:002009-05-18T15:59:00.000-06:00I thought the Patrick Henry stuff might be the poi...I thought the Patrick Henry stuff might be the point where the most discussion would "sprout."<br /><br />You are right that Henry never fought this battle nationally. I wonder, however, if he would have given the chance. Perhaps we'll never know. I do think that the point about Henry refusing to accept the Constitution because it wasn't "Christian" enough is a bit over the top. There were a lot of reasons -- religion being only one -- that Henry and others refused to get on board with the Const. <br /><br />I had a feeling you would respond to an "Ed Brayton" post, being the huge fan of his blog that you are! =)Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-21301786572641564992009-05-18T15:53:00.000-06:002009-05-18T15:53:00.000-06:00Yes, Mr. Brayton catches his opponents in some wel...Yes, Mr. Brayton catches his opponents in some well-known errors, although David Barton himself has withdrawn them. Who is Derender? Who is "Right Wing Man"? Who cares? <br /><br />Yet Mr. Brayton claims Patrick Henry lost his battle nationally, but Henry never fought it nationally.<br /><br /><I>Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?</I> <br /><br />Mr. Brayton writes<br /><br /><I>But any claim<br />that the nation is officially Christian is patently absurd; the constitution says no such thing.</I>Who makes the claim about "officially"? Who argues the constitution says any such thing?<br /><br />"Patently absurd." Indeed, Brad.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com