tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post5795443070885598687..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: John Murray's Trial in MassachusettsBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-4420631153106934762011-01-23T21:16:02.440-07:002011-01-23T21:16:02.440-07:00I think Norway and the rest of the still extant We...I think Norway and the rest of the still extant Western European establishments are apt. Looking back, I noticed a trend to associate the "established" churches with some kind of religious conservatism (the hyperbolic claims of "theocracy") and "disestablishment" with enlightenment secularism.<br /><br />The fundie Baptists (but not, apparently, as many of the Presbyterians) supported Jefferson and Madison's Virginia view. The Mass. view didn't seem (as I see it) to be an "establishment" of traditional Christianity, but a more liberal establishment. <br /><br />The conservative Christians of today want little if anything to do with the currently established liberal Christian churches in Western Europe. I think they may have noticed a similar trend in Mass.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58918814896095230592011-01-23T21:00:01.642-07:002011-01-23T21:00:01.642-07:00Well, you're the legal beagle, Jon. But Norwa...Well, you're the legal beagle, Jon. But Norway has been at this for an additional couple of centuries. My familiarity is passing, but it seems to gibe with my argument above, as does some of what you report from the issues as framed in 1783.<br /><br />I just think the court made a sentimental decision---improperly mixing faith and "religion"---and one that a reasonable judicial system like Norway's would probably not support, esp since they've had a few centuries to think about it.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be a kick if the Wiccans or the Muslims gained intrapolitical control of the Church of Norway? They'd disestablish in a New York Goddam Minute! [Like Massachusetts did.]Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-12925362848082771052011-01-23T20:12:16.869-07:002011-01-23T20:12:16.869-07:00It's an interesting case of construction of th...It's an interesting case of construction of the Mass. religion clause.<br /><br />"And all moneys paid by the subject to the support of public worship and of the public teachers aforesaid shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends; otherwise it may be paid toward the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said moneys are raised.<br /><br />"And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law."<br /><br />The first paragraph seems to protect "religion" in general; the second paragraph seems to protect "Christianity."<br /><br />I haven't been able to find it. But I'd like to see Judge Dana's decision where he protects "teachers of any persuasion whatever, Jew or Mahometan."<br /><br />I want an exact quote. I don't think what was reproduced in the book was an exact quote but a paraphrase.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78962694421783674582011-01-23T17:57:35.535-07:002011-01-23T17:57:35.535-07:00I disagree with the verdict in the Murray case, BT...I disagree with the verdict in the Murray case, BTW, not that it has any relevance in 2010.<br /><br />Faith is not the same thing as "religion" used in an "established" sense. The former is theology, the latter is politics.<br /><br /><i>Very interesting. On the one hand we have folks arguing that those who deny eternal damnation are not "Protestant Christians," therefore, not "protected" under the state religion clause, and the other, a judge, apparently (I'm going to look this one up) that Jews and Muslims are included under Massachusetts' mild religious establishment.</i><br /><br />I can't find the case from NY in the later 1800s, where the preacher was fired for not believing in God. His contract said he had to be a Protestant, and his defense was that he was one, since he rejected the Catholic Church. I think it was a Unitarian church, at that. [The pastor lost.]<br /><br />To return to the Murray case, there are a number of European countries that still give state support to churches on a plural basis, based on their representation in the populace. Norway comes to mind. This comes closest to the Murray case and Massachusetts, I believe: The Church of Norway is the established church, but all sects get to feed at the public trough. It might be interesting to see how they deal with it over there. I would think that using the legal "incorporation" of a church as a standard and not theological belief would be the only workable political mechanism, with a cutoff point for individuals and sects with only a handful of subscribers.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76819351938798602192011-01-23T16:33:34.585-07:002011-01-23T16:33:34.585-07:00Long story short: The Mass. Supreme Court, staffed...<i> Long story short: The Mass. Supreme Court, staffed by some Unitarians at that time, held Unitarians were a "Christian" sect eligible for state establishment aid which pissed the orthodox off so much so that they pushed for disestablishment. </i><br /><br />My understanding is that the unitarians took over the Congregationalist churches by intrapolitical means, and <i>Dedham</i> was a property issue more than a theological one.<br /><br />True, it led to disestablishment, analogous to if Mormonism were the established church of Utah but the Wiccans slipped in, gained physical control, and claimed Mormonism itself.<br /><br />As an old saying in Massachusetts puts it, "The Trinitarians kept the faith; the unitarians got the furniture."Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com