tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post5634342298918947205..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: John Adams and the TrinityBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-42814127451743970862011-06-27T16:05:37.241-06:002011-06-27T16:05:37.241-06:00But, I wonder about our ability to address the dee...<i>But, I wonder about our ability to address the deeper question as most of us--if not all--have pretty deeply ingrained ideas about the entire subject. </i><br /><br />I don't have any problem, meself. I don't understand why other people do, even scholars. I was taken aback by this<br /><br />http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2011/06/best-part-of-believe-is-lie.html<br /><br />To me, to study say Islam or Mormonism [I'm neither] is to proceed regardless of whether it's true or false, since the scholar cannot know. In the end, we're studying people and their beliefs, not God himself.<br /><br />What did "Redeemer" mean to the Adamses? That's all I want to know, just like I only want to know what Kolob means to a Mormon. My opinion of its existence is no more valuable than anyone else's.<br /><br />What I will say is that I think a theist has a better shot at understanding---empathizing if you will---what a Muslim's faith means to him and his worldview than someone who thinks religion is ridiculous from the get-go.<br /><br />This is not to say an atheist or agnostic couldn't empathize, but I think it's less likely.<br /><br />Then again, I suppose an eyebrows-deep Christian might get angry at what he considers "false religion," but I would think such a person could only write effectively about his own sect, and then probably too sympathetically to show its warts and all.<br /><br />[Empathy not being synonymous with sympathy.]Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58355883691343930052011-06-27T14:45:53.283-06:002011-06-27T14:45:53.283-06:00.
The discussion remains at the surface level unti....<br /><i>The discussion remains at the surface level until that question is addressed.</i><br />.<br />You might be correct in your speculation here, Tom.<br />.<br />But, I wonder about our ability to address the deeper question as most of us--if not all--have pretty deeply ingrained ideas about the entire subject. <br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-28339900447145492502011-06-27T11:18:16.281-06:002011-06-27T11:18:16.281-06:00Jason, I think the example of Reagan illustrates t...Jason, I think the example of Reagan illustrates the gulf may not be so wide.<br /><br />Craig2 re-asks a needed question---just what "Redeemer" meant to unitarians. [Also "Savior" and "Messiah," terms they also freely used for Jesus.] The discussion remains at the surface level until that question is addressed.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22163634760137863272011-06-27T09:01:08.163-06:002011-06-27T09:01:08.163-06:00The problem with these zillion quotes is that they...The problem with these zillion quotes is that they are of such a generic nature that they don’t elucidate the substance or role of religion and morality during the founding. That’s why there is such a debate about the founders beliefs with limited agreement. <br /><br />We can’t assume their emphasis or usage of words is the same as ours. Indeed, we are divided by a common language. The more I read, the more I realize how different their thoughts and beliefs are from my fellow citizens today.Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-47154874235814553342011-06-27T07:56:28.310-06:002011-06-27T07:56:28.310-06:00.
Right, Jon.
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So, who can speak to the idea that....<br />Right, Jon.<br />.<br />So, who can speak to the idea that it isn't merely that Jesus saves; but, that he is the sacrificial lamb required of a legal system. Further, that he was innocent of all the trumped up charges made against him. In the same sense all human beings are innocent of "Original Sin" which requires eternal condemnation. Jesus is the propitiation that appeases Jehovah's unjust anger against all human beings.<br />.<br />It does seem to be the Fundamental approach to the role Jesus carried out in his crucifixion.<br />.<br />Who can speak to the historical facts of this doctrinal concept?<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-29702313959045701062011-06-27T06:27:55.928-06:002011-06-27T06:27:55.928-06:00Craig,
The way I understand the Socinians, Jesus ...Craig,<br /><br />The way I understand the Socinians, Jesus redeemed by providing man with a perfect moral example that they could follow.<br /><br />The Arian example is a bit different; it's more an "unorthodox" understanding of the atonement one that I have to do more work studying. Mayhew's writings may contained that answer.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48921697324658919572011-06-27T04:13:55.183-06:002011-06-27T04:13:55.183-06:00It would be interesting to hear how the Adams fami...It would be interesting to hear how the Adams family explained the means by which a mere holy man but not God could save or redeem anyone. Especially one so rational as John boy.craig2https://www.blogger.com/profile/07217051199919605951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-31264587952225467482011-06-26T22:05:15.588-06:002011-06-26T22:05:15.588-06:00Indeed. One other thing -- the Unitarians at the ...Indeed. One other thing -- the Unitarians at the time of the Founding were far more conscious of their movement's Christian roots than the Unitarians of today usually are. One can find Unitarians from the Founding period who affirm the existence of Jesus Christ as somebody who as in some sense "divine," and one can find Unitarians who affirm the existence of the Holy Spirit. Even Jefferson in his Gospel Harmony kept in a reference to the Holy Ghost -- as I posted a while back here on this blog. <br /><br />What the Unitarians of the Founding period didn't agree with with the Nicene understanding of the Trinity. But most still were self-identified Christians, and would have affirmed Jesus as Savior, etc. Abigail Adams, who was as much a Unitarian as her husband, certainly referenced Jesus as Redeemer.Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-69152660863830406362011-06-26T20:03:12.575-06:002011-06-26T20:03:12.575-06:00If they're smart, Pinky. We have a zillion qu...If they're smart, Pinky. We have a zillion quotes from John Adams acknowledging we need religion and morality to glue things together.<br /><br />“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”<br /><br />I often point out that nobody really knows Ronald Reagan's personal beliefs about Christian dogma. Can't recall him mentioning Jesus Christ much, certainly not accepting him as his Lord and Savior and that stuff. Neither does it matter.<br /><br />This article<br /><br />http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=25246<br /><br />seems to round up Reagan's public statements on Jesus. Not much there. Sort of reminds you of Founders like Adams.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-27481098240610344002011-06-26T19:43:58.776-06:002011-06-26T19:43:58.776-06:00.
Don't all politicians, once they're pres....<br />Don't all politicians, once they're presidential, all go along with the religious norms of society whether they honestly believe them or not?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.com