tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post3795919350733783668..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Waligore on Washington, Providence & PrayerBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41100894969603218502018-03-14T08:12:08.750-06:002018-03-14T08:12:08.750-06:00That book brings back memories. My copy is autogr...That book brings back memories. My copy is autographed. Jeffry is a fan of this site. I didn't know him when he was a James Madison Program fellow, but met him shortly thereafter. He came back to Princeton to present on this book. I had drinks with him (who wasn't drinking alcohol), Paul Sigmund and a few others after his presentation. Paul Sigmund RIP. I think Sigmund used to house James Madison fellows and housed Morrison. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-2801338958750037672018-03-13T19:47:42.982-06:002018-03-13T19:47:42.982-06:00I do think he fancied himself a Stoic, that his id...I do think he fancied himself a Stoic, that his idea of virtue was pagan, not Christian--but I doubt he appreciated the difference. And I was speaking of Washington actually reading Stoic writings to derive a theology, a conception of God. <br /><br />Yes, they all fancied themselves Romans of its republican age [where else would they look for a model republic?], and Washington modeled himself on Cincinnatus. But it's a long and twisted road to turn "Old Muttonhead's" God into the Roman one[s] or the Stoics' for that matter. There was a monotheism buried in Stoic thought, but show us where Washington saw it.<br /><br /><br />Jeffrey Morrison:<br /><br />https://books.google.com/books?id=f3vfS_uxvrQC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=george+washington+stoic&source=bl&ots=2nKmuDxG2a&sig=iUJAaAMaq1y9PCPE0wohPHU2nzM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbievh1urZAhVK02MKHZtkC1MQ6AEISDAE#v=onepage&q=george%20washington%20stoic&f=falseTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-91465518737569928302018-03-13T07:50:05.868-06:002018-03-13T07:50:05.868-06:00"Washington's familiarity with the Stoics..."Washington's familiarity with the Stoics is questionable beyond reading some Cicero."<br /><br />I think this is extremely mistaken. Cato, Seneca, Cincinnatus. They are all not just profound influences on GW, but made a tremendous difference. I don't need to go into it at length; but, to give one example it was the "benevolent dictator" Cincinnatus who voluntarily gave up power at the height of the Roman republic to peacefully retire to his farm. GW followed him when he stunned the world by voluntarily giving up the Presidency after completing his 2nd term.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85623211502496466372018-03-12T15:04:05.426-06:002018-03-12T15:04:05.426-06:00I would, however, love to see an analysis of the c...I would, however, love to see an analysis of the continental Enlightenment and French deism [such as Robespierre's "Cult of the Supreme Being"], an inquiry into which I think would show the difference from the God of the American Revolution and the Scottish Common Sense Enlightenment in sharp relief.<br /><br />I think you have a live wire here but it leads the other way across the Atlantic.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-65588156149474836932018-03-12T14:59:46.747-06:002018-03-12T14:59:46.747-06:00The discussion as it's gone leads right into t...The discussion as it's gone leads right into the secularist wheelhouse, ala Stephen Pinker's recent paean to "The Enlightenment Now, The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress," which credits "rationality" for all human good, of course obviating Christianity's effect on civilizing the human race.<br /><br />http://quillette.com/2018/03/11/steven-pinkers-counter-counter-enlightenment/<br /><br />Your personal feelings are not really at issue here, Joseph, just as Gregg Frazer's personal religion is irrelevant to his thesis about "theistic rationalism."<br /><br />My rebuttal here is that the Founders were erudite men, but not particularly historians or scholars. They were intellectual dilettantes. None cite Plato, Washington's familiarity with the Stoics is questionable beyond reading some Cicero. Their theologies [when not simply orthodox] were idiosyncratic, their philosophies derivative.<br /><br />They started with the "Judeo-Christian" God, and modified it as suited their prejudices and fancies. <br /><br />Even Jefferson used the pillar of fire from Exodus as a personal seal. Whether or not he believed the story as fact, this still tells us of the prevailing theological milieu of the time--the God of Exodus was the same Providence of the American Revolution. You have no evidence to the contrary that I can see. Even notorious deist [and a true deist] Ethan Allen calls on Jehovah!Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-68579854100897527032018-03-12T11:15:54.328-06:002018-03-12T11:15:54.328-06:00Tom, I do not understand how you conclude the God ...Tom, I do not understand how you conclude the God of the Founders was Jehovah. The God may have the same characteristics as Jehova in that he is active in the world and performs miracles. I do not see how you can so cavalierly decide the God is Jehova when he might be the Stoic God or the Platonist God which has many of the same characteristics.<br /><br />If you think I am a secularist making arguments for secularism, you are very much mistaken. A secularist would never have published 3 articles all about how the English deists were spiritually-oriented thinkers. The book I am writing now is tentatively subtitled "the Spirituality of the English and American deists." I am about as far from a secularist s you will find.joseph waligorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-64447511189184229332018-03-11T12:18:11.661-06:002018-03-11T12:18:11.661-06:00Which proves or at least strongly suggests that th...Which proves or at least strongly suggests that the "rational-Christian-deist" God is still Jehovah in the Founding-era mind. In fact, as you know, notorious and oft-cited "deist" Ethan Allen puts in his own autobiography that he demanded the British surrender Ft. Ticonderoga "in the name of Jehovah and the Continental Congress!"<br /><br />Any private doubts are of academic interest [or the secularist agenda] only: The Founders' God was essentially Jehovah. This must be the starting point of any discussion of the Founding era.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43222029667708245242018-03-09T15:46:54.354-07:002018-03-09T15:46:54.354-07:00GW equates the God in which he purports to belive ...GW equates the God in which he purports to belive exists with the Natives’ “Great Spirit.” Re the Exodus point, Jefferson did it too, but unlike GW, did it in a Presidential Address. <br /><br />Is that “responsive”?Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-69219710330012535482018-03-09T14:01:24.257-07:002018-03-09T14:01:24.257-07:00yes I should just have written "unresponsive&...yes I should just have written "unresponsive" and left it at that<br /><br />Washington does equate the God of Exodus to the God of the American revolutionTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-34637231045739678122018-03-08T09:24:35.864-07:002018-03-08T09:24:35.864-07:00But he still used the term The Great Spirit twice....But he still used the term The Great Spirit twice. That’s twice as many times as he was ever recorded using the term “Jesus Christ.” And that sole reference which you reproduced was given to Natives who had already decided to convert. GW thought it a good idea, which makes sense.Jon Rowenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-3721680800120795052018-03-07T13:14:36.913-07:002018-03-07T13:14:36.913-07:00unresponsive
clearly the religion of the Great Sp...unresponsive<br /><br />clearly the religion of the Great Spirit was inadequate<br /><br /><i>You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life and above all—the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. </i>Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-4554276772301358532018-03-07T08:46:54.231-07:002018-03-07T08:46:54.231-07:00And he twice called God the Great Spirit. So I won...And he twice called God the Great Spirit. So I wonder ...Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-59889414771846194282018-03-06T16:20:20.505-07:002018-03-06T16:20:20.505-07:00While I don't necessarily believe Washington w...While I don't necessarily believe Washington was a Christian [though I certainly believe he was not poisoned against it as were Jefferson and Adams], there is a smoking gun where Providence is indeed the God of the Bible.<br /><br /><i><b>May the same wonder-working Deity, who long since delivering the Hebrews from their Egyptian Oppressors planted them in the promised land—whose providential agency has lately been conspicuous in establishing these United States as an independent nation</b>—still continue to water them with the dews of Heaven and to make the inhabitants of every denomination participate in the temporal and spiritual blessings of that people whose God is Jehovah.</i><br /><br />Letter to the Jews of Savannah, 1790<br /><br />https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-05-02-0279Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com