tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post3283128635013905259..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: WorldNetDaily Looks Forward to John Fea's BookBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-25144287769226936052011-01-03T13:28:38.032-07:002011-01-03T13:28:38.032-07:00.
Do you mean egoism?
..<br />Do you mean <b><i>egoism</i></b>?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-75439235515843154002011-01-03T13:03:58.545-07:002011-01-03T13:03:58.545-07:00The overall view of government was what the discus...The overall view of government was what the discussion was/is about.<br /><br />We got into a discussion about human development in faith, intellectual, and moral development, and how those play out in choice, and value, as Rand would suggest. Egotism is the idea that "self" has come into its own worldview. Philosophy is the handmaiden that underlies one's values and ultimate commitments.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41272172636212082602011-01-03T10:33:48.576-07:002011-01-03T10:33:48.576-07:00.
I'm think it was germane; but, don't kno....<br />I'm think it was germane; but, don't know how.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-18943762223548613792011-01-03T09:51:31.330-07:002011-01-03T09:51:31.330-07:00Phil stated:
"I'm thinking what Angie st...Phil stated:<br /><br />"I'm thinking what Angie started was intended to go in a different direction and I would have liked to have seen more of what she wanted to uncover"<br /><br />Was it germane to the thread?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13525858551867530960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-29417741678691688332011-01-03T09:05:17.951-07:002011-01-03T09:05:17.951-07:00.
Some good comments here. I think Tom has got Str....<br />Some good comments here. I think Tom has got Strauss nailed pretty good.<br />.<br />I'm thinking what Angie started was intended to go in a different direction and I would have liked to have seen more of what she wanted to uncover.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76153047662434042622011-01-02T21:26:06.179-07:002011-01-02T21:26:06.179-07:00Great discussion here. Angie I agree with Tom. You...Great discussion here. Angie I agree with Tom. You make some very good points but are hard to follow because you hit on too many themes all at once. I find that I often just skim your comments at times instead of reading them because it is just too much information.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-64287497054631323842011-01-02T20:46:48.795-07:002011-01-02T20:46:48.795-07:00It's a pleasure as always, Tom. -JasonIt's a pleasure as always, Tom. -JasonJason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-82562789230864162582011-01-02T19:26:59.592-07:002011-01-02T19:26:59.592-07:00Philosophy should not undercut the practical natur...<i>Philosophy should not undercut the practical nature of the political realm, where real humans, their lives and livilhoods live and move as free moral agents. </i><br /><br />Angie, your responses are getting just a tad scattershot. We can't address the whole human condition in every thread.<br /><br />As you can see in the discussion above between Jason and me, even the "philosopher" is not a "free moral agent," a term pretty close to gibberish. Hitler was a free moral agent and so was John Wayne Gacy.<br /><br />You touch on many good points, but making 20 of them at once, along with 10 iffy ones, makes it impossible to include you in the discussion if it's to be productive. Pick one---preferably the one everybody else is discussing---fix yrself an appropriate cocktail or do some bong hits, and then it can be like Plato's <i>Republic</i>, with everybody kickin it in a proper Socratic dialogue, and in the end, something somebody else might find worth reading through. <br /><br />These posts and discussions stay up on the internet forever, y'know. Most of our traffic is from older posts and Google even turns up results from the comments sections. So, everytime you write, take a breath, organize your neurons, and make it one for the ages.<br /><br />Cheers.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-75284631156457217382011-01-02T19:12:19.788-07:002011-01-02T19:12:19.788-07:00I think we're agreeing completely, Jason, and ...I think we're agreeing completely, Jason, and I wasn't exactly clear. Dint know if anyone was interested in the rest. <br /><br />I'm touching on Leo Strauss here, whom I don't like aligning meself with because he's a hot button in the culture wars. [The neo-con thing, which is a false charge, BTW.]<br /><br />But we like Strauss around here, so I hit him now and then when he has a point of clarity, esp on political philosophy or the classics.<br /><br />In this case, Plato's Socrates does not defend himself from the charge of impiety. Neither does he deny that his impiety is a threat to the good order of the city.<br /><br />It is. Keep in mind that in Plato's "The Trial of Socrates," Socrates has the option of fleeing the city and his sentence. He does not [perhaps because he is too old to care], nor does he complain the sentence is unjust. <br /><br />They ask him what his sentence should be, and he replies it should be free meals for life, like all the other heroes of the city. That's funny, but he's not really kidding, which is the irony of the thing. <br /><br />Is Plato sincere about religion? Strauss would say no, because the philosophy is antithetical to religion because religion limits "free inquiry" with its presuppositions---God, revelation, etc.<br /><br />Is Plato's Socrates sincere about religion? I don't think so. In fact, at the beginning of <i>Republic</i>, the rich old owner of the house, Cephalus, leaves to do sacrifice for his sins and prepare for death. Philosophy, the rest of <i>Republic</i>, is a young man's game.<br /><br />Plato's Socrates is not the real Socrates, of course, he's a device for Plato. Is Plato sincere about religion? Certainly not religion as described by the Greek pantheon.<br /><br />But yes, in the way that transcends empiricism, that perfection exists out there in the ether---"forms"---in a way that it doesn't exist on earth. <br /><br />Platonist that he is, Strauss still rejects that "forms" stuff. Still, I meself find Strauss too empirical himself, content with worldly forms of near-perfection like "virtue." Me, I think Plato was closer to the "truth." But we don't discuss truth claims around here.<br /><br />;-)<br /><br />Thx for asking, JP. We're into the buttend of this thread so I don't see the harm in touching on stuff like this now that the topic of the OP is a distant memory.<br /><br /><i>As far as the philosopher’s duty to protect the foundations of a just order, I couldn’t agree more.</i><br /><br />I think Strauss would say "the philosopher" is not obliged to protect them as far as propagating the "noble lie" of religion, but he is obliged not to destroy such "pillars" either.<br /><br />Which is exactly what Washington was saying about "patriotism."<br /><br /><i> A simple statement on the importance of religion for the ethnical underpinnings of society doesn’t reveal the speaker's philosophical sympathies. That’s all. </i><br /><br />Exactamundo per GWash [and many or most other Founders], and not a very extravagant statement atall. It's a delight having you onboard around here, Jason, clarity being more important than agreement. We can use all the clarity we can get these days.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-19884070190416369412011-01-02T19:01:27.021-07:002011-01-02T19:01:27.021-07:00According to Stanton Evans book, The Theme is Free...According to Stanton Evans book, The Theme is Freedom, he says that the Founding Fathers were not philosophers, but common lawyers. These represented "common interests".<br /><br />Aristotle's hierarchal view in his "Politics" was not what the Founders understood in their "equality before law".<br /><br />Plato's philosopher kings, also were not the specific understanding of the Founding Fathers. Even so, the philosopher kings would not be above the law, either, according to the Founders concern over limited government and individual liberty.<br /><br />I don't think that the Founders thought we should serve a "living Constitution" where an activist judge reinterprets the Constitution to his own liking. Justice was not to be implemented for the protections of government interests, but for the sake of its citizens interests.<br /><br />I believe Edmund Burke did try to defend the American Revolution before Parliament because he did believe that the Americans had a point about thier lack of representation.<br /><br />Philosophy should not undercut the practical nature of the political realm, where real humans, their lives and livilhoods live and move as free moral agents. <br />'<br />And it is because of moral agency that our Founders believed in liberty. Each individual was granted the dignity, and right of a "king", so to speak. But, the Founders also recognized humans and their propensity to err in regards to absolute power. Therefore, their concern was to bring a balance to and separation power among the three brances and limit power of the government over all.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-79518629074519765952011-01-02T18:14:54.006-07:002011-01-02T18:14:54.006-07:00I’m not clear, Tom, about what you are trying to s...I’m not clear, Tom, about what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Socrates was guilty of impiety and Plato was not sincere about religion? <br /><br />My point is that up to the founding generation, all schools of philosophy (except Epicureanism) were <i>seen</i> as proclaiming a role for religion. A simple statement on the importance of religion for the ethnical underpinnings of society doesn’t reveal the speakers philosophical sympathies. That’s all. <br /><br />As far as the philosopher’s duty to protect the foundations of a just order, I couldn’t agree more. Explicit nihilists were rare prior to the 19th century. Philosophical negligence may be a charge to consider but that’s beyond the scope of this blog.Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78688424396494247602011-01-02T17:10:26.265-07:002011-01-02T17:10:26.265-07:00But, government shold protect individuals in regar...But, government shold protect individuals in regards to theft, fraud, etc.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88979627252044163402011-01-02T17:09:07.863-07:002011-01-02T17:09:07.863-07:00Ayn Rand and the libertarian view about "free...Ayn Rand and the libertarian view about "free markets" underwrites our understanding of liberty. As "free markets" if government doesn't regulate them out of existence, do limit themselves. And individuals are free to choose where their money will be spent, or invested. Choice and risk are individual liberties about thier own private property. We don't want to let government intervene where private property is concerned, do we?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24609656578770370982011-01-02T17:07:24.893-07:002011-01-02T17:07:24.893-07:00Plato and Cicero could have uttered that very stat...<i> Plato and Cicero could have uttered that very statement. </i><br /><br />Well, that's interesting, because Athens puts Socrates to death for impiety towards the gods of the city. To touch on Strauss, he would say that "philosophy"-as-atheism has a duty not to destroy the city.<br /><br />Washington comes to the same conclusion one sentence later in your cite:<br /><br /><i>Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.</i><br /><br />It's not patriotic to tear down those "pillars." One's freedom to believe this or that stops there. A traditional reading [and today's common interpretation] is that Athens was unjust to Socrates. But he was not punished for his beliefs [or non-beliefs]. Athens was acting in self-defense and Socrates' "crime" was being seditious of the fabric of Athenian society.<br /><br />Regardless, the charge against Strauss of perpetuating the "noble lie" of religion is false---Strauss would say simply [I think, anyway] that the "philosopher" owes a duty to his host society not to destroy it. <br /><br />The "philosopher" can believe or not believe what he wants---like a hermit if you will---but is not "free" to destroy the underpinnings of the very society that makes his life possible. To me that seems quite reasonable and, well, civilized.<br /><br />_______________<br /><br /><i>One really CAN'T tell another what their "duty" is, except when it is legislated.</i><br /><br />Well, this reduces the entire human equation---and political philosophy itself to law and legalism. But as John Adams noted, mere law isn't enough to hold each man in check---he must self-govern hisself responsibly.<br /><br /><br />Law is a poor prism to examine the human experience; at its very best, it approximates reality. As for the Founders' view of law and natural law, and the etc., again James Wilson:<br /><br /><i>"[H]ow shall we, in particular instances, learn the dictates of our duty, and make, with accuracy, the proper distinction between right and wrong; in other words, how shall we, in particular cases, discover the will of God? We discover it by our conscience, by our reason, and by the Holy Scriptures. The law of nature and the law of revelation are both divine: they flow, though in different channels, from the same adorable source. It is, indeed, preposterous to separate them from each other. The object of both is ― to discover the will of God ― and both are necessary for the accomplishment of that end."</i> <br /><br />"Duty," the natural law, and "the will of God" are all intertwined in this view. And Wilson is lecturing on law and legality here, to which [he says] all these things apply. <br /><br />James Wilson, of course was a signer of the D of I, a Framer and Signer of the Constitution, and a Supreme Court Justice, and ranks pretty high in influence. I have not found anything in the Founding literature that takes a contrary viewpoint.<br /><br />In 2010, most of that is considered BS, dead white man thinking, or the tyranny of "tradition." But that's another discussion.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-14125767700983709962011-01-02T17:02:48.470-07:002011-01-02T17:02:48.470-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53011951512328868792011-01-02T16:02:46.168-07:002011-01-02T16:02:46.168-07:00Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-capitalistic...Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-capitalistic...or anti- libertarian. (From what I understand)...But, the Founders did understand the principles and importance of "common law" and of self-governance. Those that lead us should not be charged with ethical violations.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30047361049570055222011-01-02T15:58:17.399-07:002011-01-02T15:58:17.399-07:00What concerns me is the push toward Statism, and G...What concerns me is the push toward Statism, and Globalism. And this is where you EGOIST and Universalist correlate to our problems in America today.<br /><br />Those that rule have not limited themselves, and seen themselves as public servants! Thus, they are EGOIST...<br /><br />And those that have no virtue, as to self-governance, are greedy for gain and have led us into the deficit we now face, and possible slavery to nations who do not hold to the principles or values of our Republic!!! (and this is where the "human rights" movement may take us, for the greater good", etc.)Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24373112286997459012011-01-02T15:51:31.496-07:002011-01-02T15:51:31.496-07:00Tom,
The "rule of law" guards us all, do...Tom,<br />The "rule of law" guards us all, doesn't it? That means that no one can take away the right of individual liberty without consent. <br /><br />One really CAN'T tell another what their "duty" is, except when it is legislated. Stanton Evans (The Theme is Freedom) does talk about those that believe in the 'social contract' such that they give up their right to the 'whole'. (Wasn't this Rousseau? and Hobbes "general will"?). This is what covenant types think...as one's duty to "God". And that makes for tyranny, doesn't it? Stanton Evans makes the point in "The Theme is Freedom" that the Founders were the conservative, because they believed that the law was above man, in limiting the power of those governing. <br /><br />He also mentioned those that believe that the government has a duty to train, as to virtue. And this also is tyranny. He believes in libertarian principles that guard against such tyranny. This was why I asked you the question in regards to the Church and "formation"...etc.<br /><br />I think it interesting that you chose Ayn Rand (individual) and Universalist Unitarian (humanity), as your illustrations.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-83333619167668612432011-01-02T15:44:55.647-07:002011-01-02T15:44:55.647-07:00Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to ...<i>Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports.....</i><br /><br />The problem I have with generic quotes of this nature is that they could be expressed by anyone of any school of philosophy at the time of our founding with one minor exception. Plato and Cicero could have uttered that very statement. The only tradition that opposed such thinking was the materialist tradition of Democritus, Epicurus, and Hobbes. At the time of the founding this school of thought had little influence in history. Thus, generic statements about God, religion, honor, duty, and the like are almost universal. <br /><br />The important questions are more substantial. What does one think God wants one to do? How does one seek honor? What moral obligations are there? The answers to these distinguish the various religions and philosophies. I’d rather see Washington’s thoughts on these matters before I decide which school of thought he rightfully follows.Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84348231189418170172011-01-02T13:53:29.677-07:002011-01-02T13:53:29.677-07:00My point is that in a free society, like America&#...<i>My point is that in a free society, like America's, the individual has all kinds of ways to "be in the world", that is, to offer "gifts" to society. </i><br /><br />Ayn Rand would say we owe "society" nothing. Whether or not you agree, how do you tell a Randian otherwise? After all, everyone has their "diverse ways of thinking and being in the world..."<br /><br />This is the conundrum.<br /><br />That said, the diversity of religions [and non-religions] in America does accord each individual a sort of "place in the sun," although there's an additional conundrum of religious societies [or even non-religious societies like the Universal Universalists and the Rand Institute types] that they are "societies" themselves! <br /><br />The only truly "free" person in the state of nature is the hermit.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41011250318431417562011-01-02T12:03:34.426-07:002011-01-02T12:03:34.426-07:00Pinky,
My point is that in a free society, like Am...Pinky,<br />My point is that in a free society, like America's, the individual has all kinds of ways to "be in the world", that is, to offer "gifts" to society. So, uniformity, as to "faith", "intellectual commitments" or one's behavioral standards (other than law-abiding) will vastly differ from individual to individual.<br /><br />Those that want to commit to "faith" find their place among the different denominations and their different opinions regarding "faith claims".<br /><br />Those that want to commit to academice endeavors will also differ as to their commitment to a specified field of knowledge.<br /><br />And all of "us" are called to "moral development", which could be in numerous fields; church, state, national think tanks, educational, etc., as "morality" is about how one views "life" in society.<br /><br />I don't recall you revealing your experience/education concerning these areas of human development...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32979047718501790702011-01-02T09:51:43.645-07:002011-01-02T09:51:43.645-07:00.
It's an interesting area of thought to me, A....<br />It's an interesting area of thought to me, Angie.<br />.<br />I've done some work in those areas and think I've mentioned that in other threads. <br />.<br />But, I'm missing your point here. Maybe you could be more informative?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53510843559558616122011-01-02T08:28:07.421-07:002011-01-02T08:28:07.421-07:00Pinky,
I don't know if there is a universal wa...Pinky,<br />I don't know if there is a universal way that humans develop in regards to "faith", "intellect", and "morality", as these have been studied separately, but each area is developed within a particular person. This makes for the diverse ways of thinking and being in the world...<br /><br />James Fowler's faith development, William Perry's intellectual development, and Kohlburg/Gilligan's moral development all are "ordered" and developed at different levels in different people...the combination possibilities boggles the mind...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23787495574207868402011-01-02T08:26:52.132-07:002011-01-02T08:26:52.132-07:00.
Here ya go, Angie:
http://www.uctv.tv/search-de....<br />Here ya go, Angie: <br />http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=16425<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-59610620571310857592011-01-02T08:21:05.126-07:002011-01-02T08:21:05.126-07:00Pinky,
This is my question..."self" is d...Pinky,<br />This is my question..."self" is developed most freely in a free society, obviously. Some have sought to undermine "self's" autonomy, as these believe that one has to be identified by a specific culture. <br />American culture is as diverse as the people who are "American", because we are individuals, first and foremost.<br /><br />So, the Christian Nation is/is not "true", as America is not specifically given to one creed, as to "the Church".Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.com