tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post3188797803316374431..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Fukuyama, Liberal Democracy, and the Tibetan LambBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-28302418996709492732010-08-02T14:24:18.454-06:002010-08-02T14:24:18.454-06:00"Misunderstood" would be a charitable wa..."Misunderstood" would be a charitable way of putting it.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43587163772444471842010-08-02T13:46:53.894-06:002010-08-02T13:46:53.894-06:00"I said from the first I did not regard bin L..."I said from the first I did not regard bin Ladenism as "normative" Islam. In fact, 'twas I who invoked the term "bin Ladenism." writing explicitly that I wasn't speaking of any of the radical Islamism of current times"<br /><br />I think they were misreading what you were saying too from what I read.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88315832396058982182010-08-02T10:27:06.223-06:002010-08-02T10:27:06.223-06:00Or man living well according to his nature as a &q...Or man living well according to his nature as a "social animal."Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45162513546195296662010-08-02T07:05:40.920-06:002010-08-02T07:05:40.920-06:00.
Would that form of virtue qualify as altruism?
.....<br />Would that form of virtue qualify as altruism?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10565065013352985482010-08-02T07:03:27.135-06:002010-08-02T07:03:27.135-06:00.
Where did I read just recently that the Founders....<br />Where did I read just recently that the Founders defined virtue as the state of personal disinterest? That is that one put the interests of the greater society over their own.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-82623956374994802222010-08-02T06:54:59.415-06:002010-08-02T06:54:59.415-06:00BTW, Virtue is what everyone has when one does his...BTW, Virtue is what everyone has when one does his work as he should, pays his bills on time, takes care of thier kids, etc. It is everyday, workaday world of an average American citizen, no "superhero" type behavior. So many people are virtuous in theis regard.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48685085910440183952010-08-02T06:45:44.414-06:002010-08-02T06:45:44.414-06:00Tom,
I certainly am no expert, but it seems to me ...Tom,<br />I certainly am no expert, but it seems to me that there is a difference or distinction of personal virtue and civic duty.<br /><br />Personal virtue is what I was referring to, and yes, it is under parental influence. But, civic duty if what our laws decide our responsibility is for the public good. We should be law-abiding citizens.<br /><br />One cannot demand a certain action in regards to personal virtue in a free society, as this is under the control of the individual. Virtue is internalized in this sense. But, public virtue is what convention demands to protect society from disintegration. These are external or written laws. <br /><br />What is duty? to obey the law. What is virtue? to go beyond the call of duty. What that means or if it happens is the individual's free choice of action. And many times, others might not know what the choice/action is, because it is behind the scenes.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-59869690248025009222010-08-02T06:27:49.009-06:002010-08-02T06:27:49.009-06:00.
The ideas involved in the "end of history&q....<br />The ideas involved in the "end of history" thinking include a concept out of Marshall McLuhan.<br />.<br />He might have claimed that the Founding was not a natural unfolding of history; but, that it, more or less, was the flowering of some otherwise disconnected ideology. According to a lecture given by his closest associate that I attended in the 1960s. he subscribed to the idea that events pop into being like wild flowers in a field rather than as the result of the pendulum swing of history.<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-11689836824814988722010-08-02T00:05:05.434-06:002010-08-02T00:05:05.434-06:00In other words, it is like labeling all of Islam B...<i>In other words, it is like labeling all of Islam Bin Ladenism which erases thousands of years of Islamic thought that would oppose him. </i>.<br /><br />I said from the first I did not regard bin Ladenism as "normative" Islam. In fact, 'twas I who invoked the term "bin Ladenism." writing explicitly that I wasn't speaking of any of the radical Islamism of current times.<br /><br />However, attributing that caricature to me was they only way they could "win."<br /><br />As for the role of Christianity, the current "common knowledge" that the Founding was a creature of the Enlightenment can be said at least to be under legitimate challenge.<br /><br />It is indeed interesting that <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_fallacy<br /><br />is quite strong among people who believe the other side is stupid, slaves to their beliefs, but they themselves go apespit if Locke and "imago Dei" are used in the same sentence.<br /><br />_______________<br /><br /><i>Virtue cannot be formed by government, unless one is to be an oppressor, because virtue has to do with motivation, as well as action.</i><br /><br />This idea that virtue is a habit goes back to Aristotle, and the issue of "education" was at the forefront in the Founding era and the Enlightenment as well. [See Rousseau.]<br /><br />"Moral" virtue, in any religious sense, is problematic, but there is "civic" virtue as well as simple personal self-control, without which a free [liberal, "liberty"] society cannot survive.<br /><br />We teach our kids not to take drugs, not to get pregnant, and to recycle.<br /><br />Government inculcates virtue all the time.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43555680917047503752010-08-01T23:29:36.985-06:002010-08-01T23:29:36.985-06:00Tom,
I went and looked at the Lutz study and it s...Tom,<br /><br />I went and looked at the Lutz study and it seems that most of the Bible verses are for the blasphemy stuff and other hardline things. As far as the rights he does claim that of the 26 in the Bill of Rights that 7 come from the Mass bill and another 7 from the Magna Carta and English Bill of rights. He claims 4 more from somewhere else. I think that is the 75%. <br /><br />I am not so sure what his point is though. <br /><br /><br />The bottom line is that Ed is wrong and this is revisionist to the core. They are doing the same thing with Christian history that James and Chris at the Jon's blog accused you of doing with Islam(not saying you did) by taking the literalist readings as gospel and ignoring the Greek Influenced and Flat out Rationalist camps. <br /><br />In other words, it is like labeling all of Islam Bin Ladenism which erases thousands of years of Islamic thought that would oppose him. <br /><br />I really do not think he does it on purpose he just does not know any better.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9450792755008616172010-08-01T18:58:19.861-06:002010-08-01T18:58:19.861-06:00.
Interesting.
.
I was just reading (about an hour....<br />Interesting.<br />.<br />I was just reading (about an hour ago) Strauss's lecture on "Relativism" in which he covers some of the same territory.<br />.<br />What a coincidence.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-42356594061666700712010-08-01T16:14:28.331-06:002010-08-01T16:14:28.331-06:00I might add that these efforts could very well be ...I might add that these efforts could very well be in the vein of Plato's noble lie which would seem to make it possible for the deceitful lion to lie down just to disarm the lamb in order to then pin him down supposedly for his own good.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58923244378502253032010-08-01T15:28:24.755-06:002010-08-01T15:28:24.755-06:00"But, globalists want to define the "out..."But, globalists want to define the "outcomes", so that indivdiuals are "determined" how they understand themselves in light of "the greater good". Such causes are noble, but become ignoble when indivdiual liberties are supressed or manipulated. Such causes as global poverty, religious intolerance, environmentalism, human rights causes are all noble pursuits, but cannot be forced under "the rule of law", unless one wants to circumvent liberal democracy itself...."<br /><br />Perhaps this is the lion that destroys the lamb?King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-28459393684276997852010-08-01T10:08:50.059-06:002010-08-01T10:08:50.059-06:00The problem with beauracracy is the problem of sys...The problem with beauracracy is the problem of systems thinking, which inevitably leads to the demise of individual liberty, justice, equality, and/or rights. This was the basis of our Bill of Rights.<br /><br />Today, there seems to be a movement on many levels to identify the "human" with collectivity. Such collectives understand themselves on foundations of materiality or "spirituality"; or a combination of the two. Such diverse foundations are what make for a liberal democracy. There are no defined "goals, purposes" or outcomes. The individual, himself, must choose how he understands, what that means, and where he will commit his life.<br /><br />But, globalists want to define the "outcomes", so that indivdiuals are "determined" how they understand themselves in light of "the greater good". Such causes are noble, but become ignoble when indivdiual liberties are supressed or manipulated. Such causes as global poverty, religious intolerance, environmentalism, human rights causes are all noble pursuits, but cannot be forced under "the rule of law", unless one wants to circumvent liberal democracy itself....Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13448273565643319522010-08-01T08:15:49.121-06:002010-08-01T08:15:49.121-06:00Virtue cannot be formed by government, unless one ...Virtue cannot be formed by government, unless one is to be an oppressor, because virtue has to do with motivation, as well as action. And motivation has to do with personal interests, and values, which differ from individual to individual. Therefore, liberty is the environment where "true" virtue can flourish most effectively, under the nurturing hand of personal friends, and family, not beauraucratic regimes.<br /><br />I am not of the opinion that duty necessisarily necessitates virtue, because it is militaristic, and not personal. The military in our country is a voluntary service, which is inspired by our ideals. Do the countries that demand military service as part of their citizenship duties show a more virtuous citizenry?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24649663988710541602010-08-01T08:12:06.308-06:002010-08-01T08:12:06.308-06:00Thanks Angie.
Tom,
I do not think Ed is a liar ...Thanks Angie.<br /><br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />I do not think Ed is a liar and we both know that Jon is not and he says this, or used to say it a lot. Technically, Ed's statement make be true in the same way that people say that the word the Trinity is not in the Bible so the Trinity does not exist. There are numerous verses that people use to back that concept up and numerous verses people use against it.<br /><br />The point is that a valid argument can be made for both without violating all rules of logic. <br /><br />With rights it may not list rights but by indentifying the dignity of the human person created in the image of God as the rationale for punishing violations of that dignity lays the foundation. <br /><br />I have been rereading all of Jon's post on the Straussians and in one about rights he made the astute observation that it is not so much where the word came from in reference to inalienable rights but where the concept first appeared.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-80004448636803722452010-08-01T07:57:40.057-06:002010-08-01T07:57:40.057-06:00Fukuyama's thesis is interesting in the light ...Fukuyama's thesis is interesting in the light of his critics!!!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55511109785052254962010-08-01T07:54:19.601-06:002010-08-01T07:54:19.601-06:00Thanks for some of the cross referencing of this a...Thanks for some of the cross referencing of this article. What is to be the best way to understand ourselves in the world? Is it liberal democracy? or is it somthing other? We are left with no choices, as we are globally interconnected economically, but our social connections are not globally embraced, because of some form of oppressive regime. The media, education, individual expression, and free market are limited by such regimes. These liberties were granted in our Bill of Rights....what is the answer to these complex questions about man and his world?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33455356481732470242010-08-01T03:46:17.535-06:002010-08-01T03:46:17.535-06:00From what I can gather, historian Donald S. Lutz c...From what I can gather, historian Donald S. Lutz claims 3/4 of the rights in the Bill of Rights can be found in the 1641 Massachusetts Body of Liberties, complete with Bible verses to back them up.<br /><br />http://www.scribd.com/doc/29396074/Donald-S-Lutz-Colonial-Origins-of-the-American-Constitution<br /><br />On the other hand, there's a fellow on the internet named Brayton who argues:<br /><br />"There isn't a single provision in the Bill of Rights that has any concept even remotely analogous in the Bible. The Bible does not say a word about political liberty or political rights."<br /><br />I don't know who is wrong or right, whom to believe. <br /><br />But it's clear there's a Liar for Jesus here, or a Liar Against Jesus. Either there's a "single provision, or evn more than one." Any help in sorting this out would be appreciated. Wouldn't want to call the wrong guy a liar. Surely they both can't be right. <br /><br />Chris Rodda would probably of assistance here.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-38434647169918821232010-07-31T20:21:14.804-06:002010-07-31T20:21:14.804-06:00Jon Rowe in his post on Lind last year:
"The...Jon Rowe in his post on Lind last year:<br /><br />"The Straussians argue "rights" are a Hobbsean-Lockean modern invention; there is another school, the Rodney Stark/Brian Tierney school (which I plan on blogging about in great detail in the future) that holds medieval Roman Catholics actually invented the concept of "rights" which Hobbes & Locke then inherited. Both of these schools would agree that the concept of rights are not explicitly found in the Bible. Though the Stark/Tierney school argues natural rights are implicit in the creation story. Both also agree that the classical Greco-Roman system of "nature" is not "rights" oriented but rather "duty-virtue" oriented."<br /><br />I would add to the Tierney version that most of the penalities under Jewish law seem to be for violations of human dignity. The punishment for murder was rationalized to Noah based on that. <br /><br />You promised some posts on Tierney in the same post. How about it? I think Uncle Leo is wrong and from what I have read Tierney proves it.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.com