tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post2859482424531607503..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: Americanism is Getting to David BartonBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger179125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70908521180468713112011-09-06T19:14:28.102-06:002011-09-06T19:14:28.102-06:00"Never miss a great moment to shut up."
..."Never miss a great moment to shut up."<br /><br />Finally, recognition.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-16349368676889583552011-09-05T10:55:16.482-06:002011-09-05T10:55:16.482-06:00That was helpful. Thanks, Angie.That was helpful. Thanks, Angie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-39286390781346105952011-09-05T06:41:56.336-06:002011-09-05T06:41:56.336-06:00Anon,
There is truth out there and there is "...Anon,<br /><br />There is truth out there and there is "truth for me". One is factual scientific, while the other is personal and has to do with self image, which is intersubjectivity, and found within group identificatons.<br /><br />Our country was founded on rational principles, not faith based ideologies, though it allowed for them. This is why our nation is the best environment for human flourishing. It allows political liberty of relationships, and it allows for personal values of conscience. Such a country allows for diverse views about most everything. This doesn't mean that all of these beliefs are scientific facts.<br /><br />I believe this is where Barton comes into the mix of what is believed to be "right". He believes in a biblical Christianity that primarily oriented to a particular view of lifestyle. It is absolutist, so the family standards are absolute. And the country is to protect such standards because of God's Word, otherwise the country is doomed under God's judgment. Leaders are to be principled as to their convictions about these issues. Otherwise they are disqualified for service.<br /><br />Most people do not live based on scientific facts, but on personal myths, stories, etc. in religious contexts. Even when chldren grow up in a non religous environment parent share family stories, or fairy tales that create a personal narrative. These can also build a moral standard as to behavior, so religon is unnecessary to promote moral values and moral judgments.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-270849370340424602011-09-04T20:55:46.211-06:002011-09-04T20:55:46.211-06:00So, other than the unconfirmed quotes Barton admit...So, other than the unconfirmed quotes Barton admits to, is he known to be a fabricator? I don't know much about him, but I happened upon his podcast a few weeks ago and assumed he was telling the truth. I guess it is hard to define "truth" when filtered through so many generations of opinion. Ideally, I'd be able to travel back in time to ask the questions directly! All I am sure of is that what I don't know far outweighs what I do know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-51035503112518144952011-09-04T20:36:01.865-06:002011-09-04T20:36:01.865-06:00.
I think this is Magpie Mason's main blog sit....<br />I think this is Magpie Mason's main blog site: http://themagpiemason.blogspot.com/Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-27137266506879028352011-09-04T17:59:02.724-06:002011-09-04T17:59:02.724-06:00.
I do not believe any Blue Lodge Masonry involves....<br />I do not believe any Blue Lodge Masonry involves any church doctrine whatsoever.<br />.<br />However, Magpie is the one to explain such details. He is the most knowledgeable expert on Masonry that I know of.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23640401133205707872011-09-04T17:21:03.859-06:002011-09-04T17:21:03.859-06:00Phil,
With or without the accompanying doctrine? ...Phil,<br /><br />With or without the accompanying doctrine? ... I had the impression that Church doctrine was verboten in freemasonry?bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78248466805247814332011-09-04T17:18:31.398-06:002011-09-04T17:18:31.398-06:00.
The "God" of Masonry is a master desig....<br />The "God" of Masonry is a master designer with a desire for the betterment of human beings. It can be seen as the God of the Old Testament.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48092529607876655872011-09-04T17:18:22.520-06:002011-09-04T17:18:22.520-06:00I suppose a better wording for my question would b...I suppose a better wording for my question would be; Is freemasonry aligned with Modern Deism (Spinoza) or Early Deism?bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-1880957293581130472011-09-04T16:41:42.507-06:002011-09-04T16:41:42.507-06:00bpabbott,
I tend to believe that Deism is the &quo...bpabbott,<br />I tend to believe that Deism is the "established view" because of Freemasonry's hierarchal structuring. Unless, the Enlightenment did not "end" with hierarchal structuring, as an absolute "social order", then, that would continue to be their understanding.<br /><br />Equality, fraternity and brotherhood, would lend itself to Marxist ideology where class conflicts lead to a "classless society". Would this be Spinoza's god, as it would view wholism as an ultimate value.<br /><br />But, Free Masonry probably understands "power relations", and character s the only defense against abuses of power when it comes to a society that is truely free, as individuals are bound by their consicence to do what is honorable.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53744580785353498912011-09-04T16:20:18.767-06:002011-09-04T16:20:18.767-06:00Regarding the God of Freemasonry, is a Spinoza'...Regarding the God of Freemasonry, is a Spinoza's God (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism" rel="nofollow">Spinozism</a>) a proper perspective, or is the God of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Early_deism" rel="nofollow">Early Deism</a> more proper?bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-12179790438495685782011-09-04T13:12:55.898-06:002011-09-04T13:12:55.898-06:00Sorry, Phil, the Master Mason comes to the point o...Sorry, Phil, the Master Mason comes to the point of over-coming tragedy and surrendering to "God", so that living life above evil or in the perpendicular is the goal of Master Masons. Treason calls for the guild to kill, because the Craft otherwise would be in disarray! At least that is what "WiKi" says...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10196249746238018722011-09-04T11:24:41.812-06:002011-09-04T11:24:41.812-06:00Phil,
I didn't mean to insinuate that religion...Phil,<br />I didn't mean to insinuate that religion was the motivating force behind Free Masonry. No the Enlightenment, or scientific investigation WAS! These were "free thinkers", not "traditionalists" as to religious framing or terminology. Their understanding was as "Spinoza's God". Free Masonry is free from religion in that sense.<br /><br />Is the Neo-conservative movement/Leo Strauss rooted in Free Masonry? How did the term neo-conservative begin, and how did they use Leo Strauss?<br /><br />BTW, since you stated that Free Masonry was interested in the indidivudal the, are they committed to the educatonal project?<br /><br />Are there Free Masons that are in the upper escalons of our military?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-11639208138626851222011-09-04T10:57:19.295-06:002011-09-04T10:57:19.295-06:00.
As the Worshipful Master of his lodge, George Wa....<br />As the Worshipful Master of his lodge, George Washington was deeply into teaching his lodge brothers the ideals of Masonry. Everything in Masonry being about the development of the individual. Little, if anything, about some future perfect.<br /><br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-50036534158979968832011-09-04T10:53:01.114-06:002011-09-04T10:53:01.114-06:00.
What I meant to convey, Angie, was that any Free....<br />What I meant to convey, Angie, was that any Free Mason can understand why George Washington used such vocabulary to speak to the public. His ideals were based on Masonic teaching and not, particularly, on Christianity.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-44075513344875784512011-09-04T10:47:42.609-06:002011-09-04T10:47:42.609-06:00Jon, Thanks for the info. We know that George Wash...Jon, Thanks for the info. We know that George Washington was a Free Mason. Therefore, nation building was one of his goals. And the Indians were civilized through Christianity. This was George Washington's desire to bring civility to the nation and to build the infrastructure of government.<br /><br />Phil, Many of the Founders were Masons, who understood the symbolism or use of religion for building a nation. Their own symbols represent engineering science and geometty symbolizing architeture...<br /><br />The symbols useful for our nation's involvement in building foreign nations via the diplomatic corps via Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson.<br /><br />Therefore, is America a Christian nation? As Tom often has said, well, sorta.....Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46321508963015612002011-09-04T08:48:30.203-06:002011-09-04T08:48:30.203-06:00.
Aside from other knowledge, the Free Mason gets ....<br />Aside from other knowledge, the Free Mason gets the sense, from the quotations cited here, that George Washington was deeply involved in Blue Lodge Masonry. The gist of his comments seems very much in line with Masonic vocabulary.<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22309544847891980142011-09-04T08:37:15.960-06:002011-09-04T08:37:15.960-06:00Jason,
The GW wrote was from his 1783 Circular to...Jason,<br /><br />The GW wrote was from his 1783 Circular to the States. You can find in among other places here:<br /><br />http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch7s5.html<br /><br />And here:<br /><br />http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/multimedia/heston/circular_letter.html<br /><br />BTW: GW didn't talk much about Jesus by "Person" either. But the Circular (also not written by GW but signed by him) does refer to the "divine author of our blessed religion," and is the only other time GW was recorded as speaking about Jesus by name or person. Both times in public addresses not written in his hand but signed by him. In NONE of GW's private writings does he speak about Jesus by name OR person; but there is lot of generic philosophical God talk.<br /><br />GW unquestionably believed in an active Providence and probably thought of himself as a Christian in some sense. But the evidence that he believed in the Trinity, Atonement, had a personal relationship with Jesus and put his faith in Jesus finished work on the cross utterly lacks.<br /><br />I've written on this at great length before, but am repeating for anon.'s sake. Whether GW was a "Christian" really depends on how that term defines.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33820532870778267832011-09-04T08:28:44.406-06:002011-09-04T08:28:44.406-06:00I don't have time to go over Anon's websit...I don't have time to go over Anon's website in detail. But here is some feedback on GW:<br /><br />The Isaac Potts story is not confirmed in the primary sources.<br /><br />In addition to the story not being confirmed in the primary sources (I need to repeat that lest you think what follows is the basis for that assertion, it is not) those who witnessed GW's behavior at churched testified he didn't kneel when praying, something the Isaac Potts story has him doing.<br /><br />You repeat the "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible" quotation which is one of the "unconfirmed" quotations.<br /><br />The "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ" is accurate but not typical of GW's words. The address was not written by him (but was signed by him) and is the only time GW was EVER recorded mentioning the words "Jesus Christ." Likewise the context shows he wasn't proselytizing; those Indians had already became Christians and GW was politely approving of that move. <br /><br />The site also features this:<br /><br />"Almighty God: We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection: Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government: and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. AMEN.”" [Washington’'s Prayer for the United States]<br /><br />That is not accurate.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78006279273205506442011-09-04T04:53:20.532-06:002011-09-04T04:53:20.532-06:00I see Mr. Anonymous has withdrawn the Ten Commandm...I see Mr. Anonymous has withdrawn the Ten Commandments quote on his site. The others seem to have held up to his satisfaction. Good on him.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-15609543914566818292011-09-03T18:44:41.996-06:002011-09-03T18:44:41.996-06:00Thanks for the compliments. I’ve been busy. The re...Thanks for the compliments. I’ve been busy. The real world has a way of reminding me of its existence. I’ll catch everyone on another thread. The themes will no doubt return. <br /><br />Jon, where did you get that GW quote?Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78005074061576410942011-09-03T18:38:28.259-06:002011-09-03T18:38:28.259-06:00Phil,
I never heard that particular "bent&quo...Phil,<br />I never heard that particular "bent" about the splits! I have heard that everyone thought that their way of understanding was the correct one, some tolerating more than others1<br /><br />As to splits, as I have understood them, that is "cell growth", as in Church plantings, and exportation of "Their Gospel", which isn't in accordance with the real facts, of the case...<br /><br />The HOLY Spirit is the SOLE way that such as these understand "truth", which is totally subjective feeling...intuitive. It is not based in the facts of the matter, or the needs of the real world or the real person. (this is an extreme stereotyping, as some do like to do "charitable service"...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33601156299739505232011-09-03T18:13:56.485-06:002011-09-03T18:13:56.485-06:00.
You're right, Angie.
.
The church I spent my....<br />You're right, Angie.<br />.<br />The church I spent my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood until I was 28 taught it was the Holy Spirit's purpose for all those different denominations to exist.<br />.<br />The differnt interpretations is the cause that splits congregations in two all of which goes to create additional congregations. Thus the Church is expanded and grows. The more splits, the more churches. It's like divorce--it's good for the economy.<br />.<br />:^)<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-26562258375865527082011-09-03T17:30:49.135-06:002011-09-03T17:30:49.135-06:00No problem, Phil.No problem, Phil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23724620344491870062011-09-03T17:23:49.699-06:002011-09-03T17:23:49.699-06:00Phil,'
But isn't the real problem and disa...Phil,'<br />But isn't the real problem and disagreement over whether certan biblical standards change, and when, how and who makes these determinations are the question!<br /><br />Every sect of any religion has ways to distnguishing themselves from the rest. This is because there is disagreement about what faith means.<br /><br />It seems that the Academy also has its splits in the different discipliines, as people use or understand their discipline in certain ways, using certain theories.<br /><br />I was thinking today that those that recieve their Ph.D.s in the humanities are expressing themselves through their "art form", within certain disciplines, Scientists understand the natural world differently too, depending on their discipline! So there are various theories and way of using them that make for human knowledge. <br /><br />The West values such discovery and exploration! Everything is not to be confined to a text/tradition!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.com