tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post2334007753649538335..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: My Summer Vacation: A Family Pilgrimage to America’s Founding ChurchesBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10385258167228845222008-10-05T06:22:00.000-06:002008-10-05T06:22:00.000-06:00Sounds like a great argument for American Pluralis...Sounds like a great argument for American Pluralism to me.<BR/>.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-89700631707951743272008-10-04T20:39:00.000-06:002008-10-04T20:39:00.000-06:00Jonathan, You surely can find instances of Unitari...Jonathan, <BR/><BR/>You surely can find instances of Unitarians who have spoken or acted, at times, with gross prejudice. I will not deny it. Catholic immigrants faced real prejudice and discrimination in eighteenth and nineteenth-century Massachusetts at the hands of Protestants – Unitarians included. <BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, your comment on Unitarians and Catholics perhaps agreeing that all people are children of God called to mind the example of Rev. Bentley and the Catholics of Salem. <BR/><BR/>I recall too that when the Reverend Theodore Parker eulogized President John Quincy Adams, he observed that “Mr. Adams was a Unitarian.” The Unitarian Rev. Parker quickly added: “It is no great merit to be a Unitarian, or a Calvinist, or a Catholic, perhaps no more merit to be one than the other.” Theodore Parker, <I>A Discourse Occasioned by the Death of John Quincy Adams: Delivered at the Melodeon in Boston, March 5, 1848,</I> at page 45 (Boston: Bela Marsh,1848) (“reprinted from the Massachusetts Quarterly Review”).<BR/><BR/>Checking my “Centenary Edition” of Theodore Parker’s works, I find that Parker’s “Rights of Man in America,” originally delivered in 1854, contains some sharp criticism of the Roman Catholic Church, its history, and dogma. Yet Parker declared:<BR/><BR/>“I am glad the Catholics come here. Let America be an asylum for the poor and the downtrodden of all lands; let the Irish ships, reeking with misery, land their human burdens in our harbors. The continent is wide enough for all. I rejoice that in America there is no national form of religion; -- let the Jew, the Chinese Buddhist, the savage Indian, the Mormon, the Protestant, and the Catholic have free opportunity to be faithful each to his own conscience.” <BR/><BR/>I readily admit that Parker’s reference to “the savage Indian” makes me cringe. But I hope this does not obscure his central point, that nineteenth-century Boston should welcome and respect its Irish Catholic immigrants. “We should be false to the first principles of democratic theory, if we did not grant them their inalienable rights.” <BR/><BR/>“The Catholic Church,” the Unitarian Rev. Parker added, “has still many lessons to offer the Protestants.” <BR/><BR/>Theodore Parker, “The Rights of Man in America” (1854), in F.B. Sanborn, ed., <I>Theodore Parker Centenary Edition: The Rights of Man in America</I>, at pp. 357-58 (Boston: American Unitarian Association, 1911).Eric Alan Isaacsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14144268111747323445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76302533990730042382008-10-04T16:07:00.000-06:002008-10-04T16:07:00.000-06:00Though I will add I'm aware of some disturbing Uni...Though I will add I'm aware of some disturbing Unitarian history of harsh anti-RC rhetoric. But in that they were note alone. Anti-RCism united the "liberal" Unitarians with the "conservative" evangelical and Calvinistic Protestants.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85965466985103736372008-10-04T16:03:00.000-06:002008-10-04T16:03:00.000-06:00Eric,I think it's in that respect that Unitari...Eric,<BR/><BR/>I think it's in that respect that Unitarians should be viewed as heroes among Americans who value religious liberty & tolerance.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-86705329365144936032008-10-04T12:17:00.000-06:002008-10-04T12:17:00.000-06:00When my family was in Salem, Massachusetts, this s...When my family was in Salem, Massachusetts, this summer, we noted that the Immaculate Conception Church, a Roman Catholic church, prominently displays a plaque honoring a Unitarian Minister, the Rev. William Bentley of Salem’s East Church, who in the 1790s assisted Roman Catholic immigrants by, among other things, making arrangements for a Roman Catholic priest to say mass in Salem. <BR/><BR/>We find that “[i]n Catholic histories of Salem, Bentley emerged as something of a local hero, his congregation an island of good will in turbulent seas of Puritan anti-Catholicism. <A HREF="http://www.portlanddiocese.net/info.php?info_id=134" REL="nofollow">[The Most Rev.] Louis Walsh</A>, the Salem historian who wrote <I>Origin of the Catholic Church in Salem</I> (1890), praised Bentley for hosting the first Catholic priest in Salem (a convert from Congregationalism) and for helping him find and organize Catholics – mostly French refugees from England – in the 1790s. . . . A believer in both Christianity and the Enlightenment, faith and reason, Bentley hoped for progress and peace among the religions.” Dane Anthony Morrison & Nancy Lusignan Schultz, <I>Salem: Place, Myth, and Memory</I> (Northeastern University Press/University Press of New England 2005).Eric Alan Isaacsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14144268111747323445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33382796244995828392008-10-03T18:21:00.000-06:002008-10-03T18:21:00.000-06:00Heh. Maybe one day we'll see today's Roman Cathol...Heh. Maybe one day we'll see today's Roman Catholic's and Unitarian Universalists so unite. And then maybe they will invite evangelical Protestants into the mix.<BR/><BR/>Here is the common ground I suggest they so unite: We are <I>all</I> God's children. And when I say all, I mean <I>all.</I> Some of the more Calvinistic evangelicals refuse to term unregenerate unsaved folks as "God's children," terming them children of the Devil. Those folks would be the only one's excluded from this creed.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70681329286849166512008-10-03T16:04:00.000-06:002008-10-03T16:04:00.000-06:00Jonathan, I believe that Susan B. Anthony consider...Jonathan, <BR/><BR/>I believe that Susan B. Anthony considered herself both a Unitarian and a Quaker.<BR/><BR/>EricEric Alan Isaacsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14144268111747323445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45812014896754587362008-10-03T16:01:00.000-06:002008-10-03T16:01:00.000-06:00Tom, I think the approach of eighteenth-century Un...Tom, <BR/><BR/>I think the approach of eighteenth-century Unitarians and Universalists shares quite a lot with modern Unitarian Universalism. <BR/><BR/>You might compare the religion of the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Priestley" REL="nofollow">Rev. Dr. Joseph Priestley</A>, for example, with that of those who worship today in <A HREF="http://www.philauu.org/index.php/about" REL="nofollow">Priestley's Philadelphia church</A>. <BR/><BR/>Recall that when Dr. Priestley reached Philadelphia in 1796, the <A HREF="http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/elhananwinchester.html" REL="nofollow">Rev. Elhanan Winchester</A>, a Universalist minister and Trinitarian, <A HREF="http://www.uurestoration.us/history.shtml" REL="nofollow">lent Dr. Priestley his own church’s pulpit</A>, inviting Priestley to advocate viewpoints with which Rev. Winchester emphatically disagreed. <I>See e.g.,</I> Joseph Priestley, <I>Unitarianism Explained and Defended, in a Discourse Delivered in the<BR/>Church of the Universalists, at Philadelphia, 1796</I> (Philadelphia: John Thompson, 1796). <BR/><BR/>Thomas Brown explains in his 1826 book <A HREF="http://books.google.com/books?id=DvAQAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:universal+intitle:salvation+inauthor:thomas+inauthor:brown&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA325,M1" REL="nofollow"><I>A History of the Origin and Progress of the Doctrine of Universal Salvation</I> 325 n.* (Albany: Thomas Brown, 1826)</A>, that although both Dr. Priestley were Univeralists, they had very different ideas about when and how Universal Salvation might come. Moreover, while “Dr. Priestley was a Unitarian Universalist,” his host Rev. “Winchester was a Trinitarian, but notwithstanding this difference in sentiment, they were intimate, and fellowshipped one another, as brethren; thus setting an example what all others should do.” <BR/><BR/>Priestley and Winchester united in religious fellowship even though they differed considerably in both christology and eschatology. And so it is today in the Unitarian Universalist congregations of both Priestley and Winchester, whose members approach religion in a remarkably similar fashion -- emphasizing freedom in fellowship that embraces a wide difference of opinion in matters of theology.Eric Alan Isaacsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14144268111747323445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85496438697702766782008-10-03T10:56:00.000-06:002008-10-03T10:56:00.000-06:00Heh. My bro and I used to tease my Dad (an old De...Heh. My bro and I used to tease my Dad (an old Democrat, obsessively anti-Nixon) about Nixon's Quakerism. Maybe we should bring that up again as a joke next time we see him.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-21845378988056710172008-10-03T09:33:00.000-06:002008-10-03T09:33:00.000-06:00You mean its not because you're a big fan of Richa...You mean its not because you're a big fan of Richard Nixon?=)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33176997482661422022008-10-03T08:07:00.000-06:002008-10-03T08:07:00.000-06:00The Quakers historically have been ahead on the le...The Quakers historically have been ahead on the learning curve on most contentious moral issues.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-82571720021542719442008-10-02T10:16:00.000-06:002008-10-02T10:16:00.000-06:00What an awesome vacation! Even though I am not a ...What an awesome vacation! Even though I am not a Unitarian I would have died and gone to heaven to be able to go on a vacation like that! Thanks for sharing!<BR/><BR/>Jon:<BR/><BR/>A personal question for ya. What is it about the Quakers that has attracted your attention? Being that you know a great deal about religion I am simply curious to know.Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-63761135271379759772008-10-02T09:50:00.000-06:002008-10-02T09:50:00.000-06:00On a personal note. In thinking of joining a Chur...On a personal note. In thinking of joining a Church, I've considered UU. However they are probably a little to the left of what I'm looking for. Currently the Quakers have the most attractive organization for my tastes.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78804505059930020402008-10-02T07:28:00.000-06:002008-10-02T07:28:00.000-06:00They also own the names "Unitarian" and "Universal...They also own the names "Unitarian" and "Universalist." It's funny how few people know what those terms initially meant and when you say "Unitarian Universalists" everyone thinks of the modern UU Church when theological unitarianism and universalism have biblical arguments made by those who believe the Bible infallible, made on its behalf. Charles Chauncy was somewhat of a biblical unitarian universalist.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-17056818476507342722008-10-01T22:47:00.000-06:002008-10-01T22:47:00.000-06:00There are "evolutionary" dead ends, Jon. Many man...There are "evolutionary" dead ends, Jon. Many many of them. Sorry, it's nowhere clear that America's Founding Faiths have "evolved" into Unitarian Universalism, no more than it's clear the mule has "evolved" from the horse and donkey.<BR/><BR/>Unitarian Universalism was "founded" in 1961 by putting two desperate and disparate churches together, and by 1961, neither had claim on the American Founding except the ownership of its buildings.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-26027219830091460732008-10-01T20:40:00.000-06:002008-10-01T20:40:00.000-06:00Heh. I think it's clear that America's Founding F...Heh. I think it's clear that America's Founding Faiths have evolved into Unitarian Universalism. Though if we use evolution as our guide, 1) Wolves evolved into modern dogs, and 2) Dinosaurs evolved into Chickens. Whether the transmogrification of Founding Faiths into modern Unitarian Universalism is 1 or 2 (or something in between) is a matter of debate.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30678073182711902522008-10-01T19:33:00.000-06:002008-10-01T19:33:00.000-06:00Eric Alan Isaacson writes:That the First Church in...Eric Alan Isaacson writes:<I><BR/>That the First Church in Salem could open its pulpit to a self-identified witch said something...</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, it certainly did, Eric.<BR/><BR/>What it said is that Unitarian Universalism has the <I>physical</I> possession of a number of Founding-era churches. However, that fact doesn't give Unitarian Universalism any theological claim to the "congregations" of that day or to the consciences of the Founders.<BR/><BR/>To conscript John Adams into Unitarian Universalism's positions on contemporary social issues falls short of intellectual honesty or credibility. Nor could we assert with any confidence whatsoever that John Adams would have been cool with a self-proclaimed witch in his pulpit.<BR/><BR/>Unitarian Universalism is for all practical and theological purposes a church that was founded in 1961 out of the surviving remnants of 19th century Unitarianism and 19th century Unitarianism---neither of which are theologically recognizable in UU's current form, and neither of which were particularly compatible with the other.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, Alan, but if you're going to make truth claims for the wonderfulness of your religion and the self-evident correctness of its positions on social issues, it was you who put them on the table.<BR/><BR/>They are subject to the same honest inspection that Brian Tubbs gladly endures, and when our departed contributors Mr. Atkinson and Ms. Gaga did similar commercials for their churches and beliefs, they apparently disliked the inspection enough to leave.<BR/><BR/>Unitarian Universalism in 2008 stands at ~225,000 members---stable at best over the past 40-odd years in absolute terms, shrinking when population growth is figured in.<BR/><BR/>So when you claim---as you have, Eric---that America's "Founding Faiths" are "evolving," it's neither clear that they have any theological claim to being "America's Founding Faiths," nor that their "evolution" is anything more than their death throes, as they give up the ghost to secular humanism. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Unitarian Universalism owns the Founding-era buildings, nothing more.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-60759969581641162112008-10-01T16:56:00.000-06:002008-10-01T16:56:00.000-06:00Great post. I am remiss that when I spent nearly ...Great post. I am remiss that when I spent nearly 4 years in Boston going to college (including two very nice summers) I was not into this issue at all, so I missed out on it completely.<BR/><BR/>When I finally make my way back (I haven't been there since I graduated in '95) it's going to be amazing how different I am and how different my interests are.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55818550097069485472008-10-01T11:02:00.000-06:002008-10-01T11:02:00.000-06:00.I'd say you and your family are very fortunate to....<BR/>I'd say you and your family are very fortunate to have spent that time traipsing in Yankee land.<BR/>.<BR/>Dijyuh get tuh the cape foah lobstuh?<BR/>.<BR/>Very good of you to share your interesting experiences.<BR/>.<BR/>Thanks.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.com