tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post2324253144043592108..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: America's "Unorthodox" ReligionBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85820303203975370332008-12-31T19:39:00.000-07:002008-12-31T19:39:00.000-07:00Hmmm. If I had to bet, I'd say America at the Fou...Hmmm. If I had to bet, I'd say America at the Founding had similar numbers, if not even higher. Yet the argument is made often around here that they were lower, perhaps far lower.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, based on these figures, surely America 2008 is a Christian nation in some meaningful sense.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53236202522194833372008-12-31T16:19:00.000-07:002008-12-31T16:19:00.000-07:00According to the latest Harris Poll...80% of Ameri...According to the latest Harris Poll...<BR/><BR/>80% of Americans believe in God<BR/>75% believe in miracles<BR/>73% believe in heaven<BR/>71% believe in angels<BR/>71% believe Jesus is the Son of God<BR/>70% believe in Jesus' resurrection<BR/>62% believe in hell<BR/>61% believe in the virgin birth<BR/><BR/>These numbers are similar to other polls taken in recent years.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9604265487958772952008-12-31T00:02:00.000-07:002008-12-31T00:02:00.000-07:00A majority of Americans STILL believe in the basic...<I>A majority of Americans STILL believe in the basic, supernatural claims of Christianity - virgin birth, Jesus as the Son of God, resurrection, etc.</I><BR/><BR/>Brian, I meself don't know that as fact. Pls do support this claim as best you can, and perhaps most importantly, the belief that God spoke to man in some fashion and the results are in the Bible. [Inerrant or not.]<BR/><BR/>I honestly don't know one way or the other. In fact, I don't think it's been established around here that they felt that way at the Founding, at least listening to the arguments flying past each other on this blog...Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-67914121767418201352008-12-30T17:31:00.000-07:002008-12-30T17:31:00.000-07:00Jon, I'm aware that Pinky was quoting Jefferson. G...Jon, I'm aware that Pinky was quoting Jefferson. Got that. Where I disagree with him is the application of the quote to today. A majority of Americans STILL believe in the basic, supernatural claims of Christianity - virgin birth, Jesus as the Son of God, resurrection, etc.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-58685227867741341812008-12-30T10:25:00.000-07:002008-12-30T10:25:00.000-07:00."...ignorance at saying that day HAS come that th....<BR/><I>"...ignorance at saying that day HAS come that the supernatural components of Jesus' story have been 'classed as fables.' Maybe they've been classed as such by SOME in society..."</I><BR/>.<BR/>You made my point.<BR/>.<BR/>Not only is it stated as so "by SOME in society"; but, those who make the statement are growing in number.<BR/>.<BR/>Our generation has seen Jefferson's prediction come true.<BR/>.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-11975908239224144042008-12-30T10:01:00.000-07:002008-12-30T10:01:00.000-07:00Brian,Pinky is quoting Jefferson.Brian,<BR/><BR/>Pinky is quoting Jefferson.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-86854103302203799442008-12-30T09:49:00.000-07:002008-12-30T09:49:00.000-07:00Unfortunately, Eric, you are very correct.Unfortunately, Eric, you are very correct.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24951934467905745772008-12-30T09:48:00.000-07:002008-12-30T09:48:00.000-07:00Pinky, with due respect, you show your ignorance a...Pinky, with due respect, you show your ignorance at saying that day HAS come that the supernatural components of Jesus' story have been "classed as fables." Maybe they've been classed as such by SOME in society, but a majority of Americans (according to every poll I've seen) still believe in the virgin birth of Jesus as well as his resurrection.<BR/><BR/>What's more, EVEN IN THE WORLD OF SCHOLARSHIP (and I refer to liberal as well as conservative scholars), there is a pretty spirited debate (and even acknowledgment on) some of the more significant aspects of the Gospels. <BR/><BR/>Read a few books by Gary Habermas, N.T. Wright, and (going back a few years) J. Gresham Machen. And, of course, C.S. Lewis. Then, we'll talk.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-49276613253230178492008-12-28T22:34:00.000-07:002008-12-28T22:34:00.000-07:00Heh...I can't argue with you there!Heh...I can't argue with you there!Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-6383548567598359432008-12-28T22:32:00.000-07:002008-12-28T22:32:00.000-07:00Brad writes that "the fact remains that the majori...Brad writes that "the fact remains that the majority of Americans (then and now) still hold the BASIC doctrines of Christianity to be absolute truths." <BR/><BR/>Whether they can articulate what those doctrines are is another matter.Eric Alan Isaacsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14144268111747323445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-8235198076934245612008-12-28T12:55:00.000-07:002008-12-28T12:55:00.000-07:00..The day HAS come "...when the mystical generatio....<BR/>.<BR/>The day <B>HAS</B> come "...when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter".<BR/>.<BR/>Brad Hart writes, <BR/><I>"... I don't see [Jefferson] being on the same page with mainstream Christianity of today (or of his day for that matter). "</I><BR/>.<BR/>Which brings up the point about how anyone gets to include themselves as belonging to "mainstream Christianity".Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9676289353366715372008-12-27T19:29:00.000-07:002008-12-27T19:29:00.000-07:00“The day will come when the mystical generation of...<EM>“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes, Jefferson may have accepted a more unitarian definition of Jesus as the savior of mankind via his morals, philosophy, etc., but I don't see him being on the same page with mainstream Christianity of today (or of his day for that matter). After all, his contemporaries scolded him for his religious view, which caused Jefferson to become private on the issue. <BR/><BR/>And while many moderns may share Jefferson’s distrust of orthodoxy, I doubt that many would agree with his alteration of the Bible, insistence that Jesus was a mere mortal, etc.Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10723838370442711322008-12-27T14:04:00.000-07:002008-12-27T14:04:00.000-07:00Thanks for this.On our point of disagreement, I th...Thanks for this.<BR/><BR/>On our point of disagreement, I think you may be pushing Jefferson a little too far to the left. He was a true blue Socinian who thought Jesus 100% man, not God at all. But, I have seen at least one quotation where he refers to Jesus as savior which would accord with the Unitarian idea that Jesus the man saved mankind through his perfect moral example. And in this sense, though not divine, Jesus was on a "divine" mission.<BR/><BR/>The biggest difference between Jefferson's beliefs on the one hand those of not just J. Adams but Priestley on the other is that Jefferson disbelieved in the Resurrection, they believed in it. (And they believed it was God doing for the most moral man what He might one day do for all mankind). Jefferson understood he could disagree with them but still maintain fellowship as "rational Christians" or "unitarians." <BR/><BR/>Indeed, I've seen a few letters of Jefferson praising the Arian Richard Price. Price believed in Jesus as the "divine Son of God," just not "God the Son." So I think Jefferson's definition of "Unitarianism" would jibe with most American's Christianity today. Just not with the orthodox Trinitarians who believe the Bible infallible and all non-born again Christians get eternal damnation.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.com