tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post1693557968080736170..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Livingston Cribbed Trenchard & GordonBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13068750467871068322016-09-06T21:53:30.718-06:002016-09-06T21:53:30.718-06:00If you read the link, this is far from certain. It...If you read the link, this is far from certain. It's quite a fascinating piece, that T&G's more Lockean pieces were reprinted in colonial America but not the less republican sentiments.<br /><br />We're back to what I posit about Locke himself, that the "true" Locke [or the true T&G] is of no concern, only what the Americans made of them.<br /><br />The point is, intellectual historians till are not certain what the Americans made of them, and the conventional wisdom about T&G is under challenge when you compare what was printed in the colonies vs. their <i>entire</i> corpus as printed in Britain.<br /><br />Back to this topic, in emphasizing Henry I-VIII, I skipped over<br /><br /><i> the forming of all Ecclesiastical Polity by the Legislature; and, consequently, the creating of Clergymen by the Civil Authority</i><br /><br />which puts <i>Parliament</i> in charge of the Church, again putting it at odds with the American principle of separation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76206189024407031372016-09-06T12:36:02.682-06:002016-09-06T12:36:02.682-06:00I don't think that's what T&G stood fo...I don't think that's what T&G stood for. I'm trying to read the larger context.<br /><br />We know that in England as elsewhere in Europe where everyone had religious establishments of the Christian variety, there was a power sharing agreement between Church & State.<br /><br />They're accusing the high Church forces within England of being too uppity and claiming to have power that supersedes that of the state (Kings, Lords, and Commons). They're trying to straighten them out by pointing to the foundations of the Anglican Church and why they broke away from Rome.<br /><br />Though I think their ideal place is with the dissenters and ultimately disestablishment. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-63715775041008207142016-09-05T16:25:26.573-06:002016-09-05T16:25:26.573-06:00They hated Rome most, yes. I didn't pore over...They hated Rome most, yes. I didn't pore over it but weren't they praising those things I excerpted as a cure for popery? Instead of the Church bossing around the king [which it had done for 500 years going back to Henry I]<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy<br /><br />Henry VIII turned the tables. If Trenchard & Gordon were indeed Hobbesian authoritarians rather than Lockean republicans<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/hr4vk44<br /><br />state control of religion is necessary and proper.<br /><br />Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-80671832947176777872016-09-05T10:35:58.985-06:002016-09-05T10:35:58.985-06:00I think they are describing the "Protestantis...I think they are describing the "Protestantism" of the Church of England, the high church version of which they hated. The "low church" latitudinarian version permitted Christian-Deism, Unitarianism, and "half Quakerism" which is what I think T&G were, before Livingston was. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24615948050131742682016-09-05T00:13:03.789-06:002016-09-05T00:13:03.789-06:00Sounds like Hobbes. The State owns the Church.
Th...Sounds like Hobbes. The State owns the Church.<br /><br /><i>The first Principles of our Protestant Church are the Principles of the Reformation; namely, the spiritual Supremacy of the Crown; the Right of the Laity to judge for themselves; the forming of all Ecclesiastical Polity by the Legislature; and, consequently, the creating of Clergymen by the Civil Authority; a Power forgot by too many of the Clergy, and remembred, against their Wills, by the Laity. Whoever would maintain the Reformation, must maintain these Principles; or embrace Popery, if he desert them. </i><br /><br />The spiritual Supremacy of the Crown? Ecclesial Polity controlled by the legislature?<br /><br />Ecch. Give me Popery!Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com