tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post168931098056683154..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Babka on Barton's DebateBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-62589571111420837632009-11-22T20:10:27.917-07:002009-11-22T20:10:27.917-07:00Al gore uses the bible tooAl gore uses the bible tooKing of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-25276369022497525072009-11-22T10:08:39.137-07:002009-11-22T10:08:39.137-07:00.
The difference between Gore and Barton, KOI, is ....<br />The difference between Gore and Barton, KOI, is that one represents his personal understandings of the current scientific knowledge while the other claims to represent the eternal truth of God. It makes no never mind whether either is correct or not. What matters is how either is received by his audience and, further, what effect that has on our culture.<br />.<br /><br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-49978223092556747182009-11-22T09:15:43.269-07:002009-11-22T09:15:43.269-07:00"Barton is playing on the religious beliefs o..."Barton is playing on the religious beliefs of millions of Americans and Al Gore only debates social issues. Barton plays a much more crucial role than Gore."<br /><br />Al Gore has 7 Concerts from 7 COntinents broadcast all over teh world for "one cause" and thousands and thousands attended and watched. I was a missionary at the time and the Barton type crowd had their big "Call" event the same weekend.<br /><br />I left that same week when no one I worked with realized that AL Gore was kicking our ass. Barton speaks to a small bubble of ingrown people. All of which are indoctrinated from childhood to believe him. <br /><br />Al Gore trumps this warming thing because the Science is in 30 years after a Newsweek article saying the Science was in that the earth was warming. Anyone who disagreed then was an idiot. It is the same now. I think it is all a land grab personally.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9271841899832576732009-11-21T21:51:42.832-07:002009-11-21T21:51:42.832-07:00Well, Ben, Barton tells some truths, even if he is...Well, Ben, Barton tells some truths, even if he is evil, even if only by accident.<br /><br />Like Al Gore. That Gore is either stupid or dishonest doesn't mean there isn't global warming or climate change or whatever we're calling it this week.<br /><br />So, my core point would be that we should not commit the "genetic fallacy"---that just because some idiot or liar advances Thesis X, that doesn't mean it's false.<br /><br />And when it comes to David Barton, I think that's the exact subtext of the attacks on him. He's a minor figure at best. Liars for Jesus? If Barton's a liar, then they're all liars, is the <i>sub rosa</i> claim.<br /><br />I'm just so sick of the sophistry, Ben. None of it is friends with the truth, whatever that may be.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70189752199574383272009-11-21T21:04:27.881-07:002009-11-21T21:04:27.881-07:00When drawing lines, I do my best to divide between...When drawing <i>lines</i>, I do my best to divide between the <i>constructive</i> and <i>destructive</i>.<br /><br />My perspective is that Barton is an activist who relies upon desception, mirepresentation, and lies ... for me that is <i>destructive</i>.<br /><br />I realize that on this blog "lies" is polically incorrect, but I'm not accusing Barton of knowingly lying ... only of propogating lies.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-20594604223169320272009-11-21T20:58:26.096-07:002009-11-21T20:58:26.096-07:00Tom,
Selective outrage is something we are all gu...Tom,<br /><br />Selective outrage is something we are all guilty of. It's the main reason that works me up over religious conservative objections to hate crimes laws. I tend to agree with the most honest of them, that, in principle, hate crimes laws are a bad idea. But what I see coming from them is how horrible it is to have a hate crimes statute that includes "sexual orientation," ignoring the fact that most of the hate crimes statutes that already exist do not include sexual orientation and that they tend not to get worked up over them.<br /><br />Indeed, the most ignorant of religious conservatives think hate crimes statutes ONLY include sexual orientation based on what they've been taught.<br /><br />The end result is it appears, from their POV, just fine to have a hate crimes statute that protects race, gender, religion etc.; but add sexual orientation to the list and that's when the thought crime tyranny begins.<br /><br />In reality, if there is "thought crime tyranny" to hate crimes laws, it began at the very start, when the first hate crimes statute was passed that included race, religion, whatever, but not sexual orientation.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-5747322372454636942009-11-21T20:23:29.299-07:002009-11-21T20:23:29.299-07:00I know it's not much; but, if I could get a li...I know it's not much; but, if I could get a little feedback I might come up with something better and possibly suited for this blog site.<br />.<br />http://americansociety-today.blogspot.com/2009/11/natural-civil-rights-at-founding.htmlPhil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-39501370280069360582009-11-21T20:02:34.285-07:002009-11-21T20:02:34.285-07:00I don't claim to be a mindreader. I hear all ...I don't claim to be a mindreader. I hear all this stuff against him and all I see are minor errors. I dunno if they come from him being dishonest or just dumb. God bless Chris Rodda for her work on the Kaskaskia Indian controversy, but its importance one way or the other doesn't even move the meter.<br /><br />You seem to be letting Al Gore off the hook here, as apparently is our readership. Where is the outrage? In fact, I left a tickle previously about Gore thumping the Bible over our duty to confront climate change. Crickets chirping on that one, too.<br /><br />Not a big deal to me, but I am amused.<br /><br />One thing I'd be interested in is if anybody wants to take on Barton's wallbuilders.com website, where it's all there in black and white. This video thing, from him speaking to churches or from some religious cable channel, doesn't move the meter either.<br /><br />Gore's movie is in all our schools, and his latest was on Conan O'Brien. Barton gets Hamilton wrong on some video? Christ, man, our population barely knows who Hamilton is, let alone Barton. I'm just not feeling this.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-36267099320550870072009-11-21T19:35:42.431-07:002009-11-21T19:35:42.431-07:00.
I don't know who said Barton is ruinging Ame....<br />I don't know who said Barton is ruinging America.<br />.<br />What I said had to do with his being in over his head and that he would be exposed for what he is--no friend of the truth.<br />.<br />It's inevitable that his peers will expose him.<br />.<br />And the pathetic thing is that he starts out with truth and that would be good enough by itself. <br />But, he puts an unnecessary spin on it to satisfy the desires of those he wants to lead which shows him up as a liar. Poor leadership trait.<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46306247565324535432009-11-21T19:23:16.612-07:002009-11-21T19:23:16.612-07:00.
What? Make a case?
.
How's that?
.
It's....<br />What? Make a case?<br />.<br />How's that?<br />.<br />It's all a matter of opinion whichever way you go.<br />.<br />Why argue over opinion?<br />.<br />What I think is good someone else might see as bad.<br />.<br />I've said what I believe. Maybe you believe differently?<br />.<br />Go for it.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13579504375654301822009-11-21T19:12:02.123-07:002009-11-21T19:12:02.123-07:00Make your case how Barton is ruining America. Fac...Make your case how Barton is ruining America. Facts, please.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55595634260440017932009-11-21T16:35:01.064-07:002009-11-21T16:35:01.064-07:00Tom!
.
I'm sure you know that there is a world...Tom!<br />.<br />I'm sure you know that there is a world of difference between religion and politics and in how they impact people.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-60092468705287944812009-11-21T15:14:36.859-07:002009-11-21T15:14:36.859-07:00Ah, how life is funny sometimes.
http://www.power...Ah, how life is funny sometimes.<br /><br />http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024995.php<br /><br />I expect the same outrage that Barton gets any minute now...<br /><br />;-)Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-66149751120015533382009-11-21T14:12:13.771-07:002009-11-21T14:12:13.771-07:00Barton plays a much more crucial role than Gore.
...<i>Barton plays a much more crucial role than Gore.</i><br /><br />If you say so. I don't see Barton in every school in the country like <i>An Inconvenient Truth</i> is. Neither do I see the fundies making much headway in turning the US into a theocracy.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84127942374220900702009-11-21T14:03:53.557-07:002009-11-21T14:03:53.557-07:00,
I distinctly said, anyone.
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Do you think my min...,<br />I distinctly said, anyone.<br />.<br />Do you think my mind is closed?<br />.<br />Even so, there is a great deal of difference between Al Gore and David Barton.<br />.<br />Barton is playing on the religious beliefs of millions of Americans and Al Gore only debates social issues. Barton plays a much more crucial role than Gore.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-47269014803183128612009-11-21T13:58:03.909-07:002009-11-21T13:58:03.909-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30874702991491524212009-11-21T13:38:58.659-07:002009-11-21T13:38:58.659-07:00Does all that apply to Al Gore too, Pinky?Does all that apply to Al Gore too, Pinky?Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46098910317824429742009-11-21T06:56:17.178-07:002009-11-21T06:56:17.178-07:00.
And that's where we come to understand opini....<br />And that's where we come to understand opinion, Tom.<br />.<br />Anyone as popularly accepted as Barton and who plays fast and loose with the truth is an enemy of truth.<br />.<br />He takes the truth and twists it to mean what it never will. He doesn't have to do that; but, his targeted market is easily influenced by what they want to hear. That is shameful. <br />.<br />His lies are particularly despicable as he could be honest with the truth; but, it wouldn't get the same effect as his purposeful twisting gets. That doesn't take a lot of thinking to figure out.<br />.<br />His lies set up sides amongst the uninformed that divide audiences. It's an old, old trick. He should be ashamed of himself.<br />.<br />And, if he lives long enough, someday he will be ashamed of what he has done. Passing himself off as an honest man. What a charade!!<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-25897133553998371462009-11-21T03:29:19.585-07:002009-11-21T03:29:19.585-07:00Barton is a propagandist who has gotten way in ove...<i>Barton is a propagandist who has gotten way in over his head. Yet, he does good service to help us search out the truth of which he is no friend.</i><br /><br />Heh heh.<br /><br />Quote of the year so far, Phil. But I don't think he's an enemy of the truth as much as he's unconcerned with the truth. Sophists don't lie so much as they only care about winning.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-37588107900007486132009-11-20T18:00:08.028-07:002009-11-20T18:00:08.028-07:00Whoopsd! My error.
That's Barry Alan Shain.
...Whoopsd! My error.<br /><br />That's Barry Alan Shain.<br /><br />.<br />Sorry.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-67266853631193656502009-11-20T17:58:04.379-07:002009-11-20T17:58:04.379-07:00.
I am currecntly reading Barry Alan Sahin's .... <br />I am currecntly reading Barry Alan Sahin's "The Natrure of Rights at the American Founding and Beyond".<br />. <br />It includes essays from these contributors:Akhil Reed Amar, Yale University * James H. Hutson, Library of Congress * Stephen Macedo, Princeton University * Richard Primus, University of Michigan * Jack N. Rakove, Stanford University * John Phillip Reid, New York University * Daniel T. Rodgers, Princeton University * A. Gregg Roeber, Pennsylvania State University * Barry Alan Shain, Colgate University * Rogers M. Smith, University of Pennsylvania * Leif Wenar, University of Sheffield * Gordon S. Wood, Brown University<br />.<br />I've only maneuvered about two thirds of it so far. The essays sure put a great deal of light on what's going on here.<br />.<br />Barton is a propagandist who has gotten way in over his head. Yet, he does good service to help us search out the truth of which he is no friend.<br />.<br />You owe it to yourself to own a copy of this book.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-61408192769465975892009-11-20T17:22:03.450-07:002009-11-20T17:22:03.450-07:00...to acknowledge the many things he gets right......<i>...to acknowledge the many things he gets right...</i><br /><br />By helping Barton weed out the bad his challengers are expanding the space for his good arguments. This is the kind of peer review process that helps produce a better product. If you want a better product.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88196902943612274212009-11-20T17:00:48.778-07:002009-11-20T17:00:48.778-07:00Well, I hit Barton's website now and then afte...Well, I hit Barton's website now and then after one of these semi-monthly attacks on him, but don't see too much there to start a spitstorm over. I've used the search function there for "Christian Nation," but there's only a few minor hits. <br /><br />He does continue to miss that John Adams was being sarcastic about the Holy Ghost running the world or the government or whatever, but there's a lot of people with no appreciation for humor these days.<br /><br />Yes, he doesn't debate his critics and is making a ton of money off his lies, it's true. Just like Al Gore and his "the interior of the earth has a temperature of several million degrees."<br /><br />http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/11/18/al-gore-earths-interior-extremely-hot-several-million-degrees<br /><br />Present company excepted, most of the people who get upset about David Barton have nothing to say about Al Gore. I'd have posted a link to the Associated Press, but there doesn't seem to be one. Their factcheckers are all busy on Sarah Palin's book, I guess.<br /><br />http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/ap-reports-on-11-person-fact-check-of-going-rogue-are-inaccurate.php<br /><br />Well, some of us think that's funny.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-52347148343843791582009-11-20T16:56:20.815-07:002009-11-20T16:56:20.815-07:00...as tough as wrestling a one-legged midget.
Und...<i>...as tough as wrestling a one-legged midget.</i><br /><br />Underestimate the appendage challenged little person at your own expense.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-47665952875782188822009-11-20T15:18:40.663-07:002009-11-20T15:18:40.663-07:00Actually Tom, I had no idea that the video was 4-5...Actually Tom, I had no idea that the video was 4-5 yrs old when I first linked to it. It appears to be in digital hi-def., so I thought it was newer than that.<br /><br />What's notable about this video -- why I linked to it -- is that it's the ONLY instance of which I am aware where Barton actually debates someone.<br /><br />As I noted up front, Barton is known for NOT debating his critics.<br /><br />And I don't blame him; he's making a mint off of his lectures to evangelical churches. And he's wisely invested a lot of his $$ in buying the originals to many historical documents.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.com