tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post7957253001620367202..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Christian Nation Debate on Opposing ViewsBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-6823983851968465282015-03-11T20:07:41.970-06:002015-03-11T20:07:41.970-06:00so what do you guys think of Catherine Millards wo...so what do you guys think of Catherine Millards work? She claims to have worked and read the original copies of many fouding fathers papers and bookswakawakwakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264808613704582683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-19883097397644088302008-10-04T21:48:00.000-06:002008-10-04T21:48:00.000-06:00Oh, I quite agree that the many Biblical reference...Oh, I quite agree that the many Biblical references at the time were in the interest in "speaking the other guy's language," in this case, the Bible. And I think Locke did it a lot, and people [Christian Nationists?] confuse his Bible-citing as lingua franca for Bible-thumping.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, this speaks to perhaps my biggest objection to the Framing of our continuing debate on the American Creation, the theologico-political landscape of the Founding era. <BR/><BR/>By focusing on a half-dozen or so "key Founders," those men politically astute enough to avoid the disqualification of being seen as too closely aligned with the Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc., we might miss that those "key" Founders were simply seen as honest brokers among the sects.<BR/><BR/>Mostly, they were political animals, not theological ones, at least in public. Which was way cool.<BR/><BR/>I feel confident to guarantee the mellow Mormon Mitt Romney would get far more votes for president than Pat Robertson, even though Robertson's concept of Jesus and God the Almighty Himself is far closer to the American public's concept of them than the Mormon one. <BR/><BR/>Religion is religion and politics is politics. I'd be cool with being governed by Mitt Romney; Pat Robetson, well, I don't think so.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-26842412729870634362008-10-04T19:30:00.000-06:002008-10-04T19:30:00.000-06:00Point well taken Tom. I didn't do an in depth pos...Point well taken Tom. I didn't do an in depth post, but if I did, I would have noted how Vickey went from Barton to the Lutz study (another Christian Nation talking point) and would have put said study in context and shown how the Christian Nationalists misuse and distort it. The Lutz study basically says the Founders quoted the Bible a lot. <BR/><BR/>Two points: One, the Federalists DID NOT quote the Bible a lot when Framing the Constitution and the Lutz study admits this, something CNs never reveal and oft-quote said study to the opposite conclusion.<BR/><BR/>And two, when our Whig Founders and the ministers they followed did quote the Bible (more on Declaring Independence, and much less when framing the Constitution) they often did so in propagandistic, self serving ways using unorthodox hermeneutics. I've posted on this a number of times but might do another post here to try to again stress the point. This point, by the way, is not often made by secularists, but rather notably made by Mark Noll, Nathan Hatch, George Marsden, Robert Kraynak and other Straussians and of course, Dr. Frazer.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-29582871042204697922008-10-04T18:55:00.000-06:002008-10-04T18:55:00.000-06:00Not only did Dr. Vickery cite David Barton for his...<I>Not only did Dr. Vickery cite David Barton for his position...</I><BR/><BR/>Now, it's quite established that David Barton made amateur errors early in his career as a historian/polemicist, unintentionally taking the bogus quotes created by 19th century Christian hagiographers as factual. It was bad scholarship.<BR/><BR/>However, he seems to have corrected those youthful errors. When Dr. Vickery cites Barton here, are the factual claims accurate?<BR/><BR/>If they are indeed accurate, that they came from Barton is irrelevant; "poisoning the well" is a logical fallacy and although an effective rhetorical technique, discredits most he who employs it.<BR/><BR/>From what I google about Catherine Millard in 30 seconds---and 30 seconds seems quite sufficient---she is indeed shoddy and is one of those people who end up hurting their own cause. If I were in the forum, I'd be delighted to see her on the other side.<BR/><BR/>Although a victory over her would be quite hollow, like beating your dog at chess...Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com