tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post7342083122498143271..comments2024-03-17T14:55:33.289-06:00Comments on American Creation: The Forgotten Virtue of IndustryBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10248895930917296122011-07-08T15:16:44.613-06:002011-07-08T15:16:44.613-06:00.
I think that something can be practical and unav....<br /><i>I think that something can be practical and unavoidable AND still be a major virtue. Depends on one's attitude when doing the work, I suppose.</i><br />.<br />As long as we're going to bring philosophy into this thread, how about this bit out of Habermas's lecture, Modernity's Consciusness of Time and Its Need for Self-Reassurance, where he refers to Max Weber:<br />“What Weber depicted was not only the secularization of Western culture, but also and especially the development of modern societies from the viewpoint of rationalization. The new structures of society were marked by the differentiation of the two functionally intermeshing systems that had taken shape around the organizational cores of the capitalist enterprise and the bureaucratic state apparatus. Weber understood this process as the institutionalization of purposive-rational economic and administrative action. To the degree that everyday life was affected by this cultural and societal rationalization, traditional forms of life---which in the early modern period were differentiated primarily according to one’ trade---were dissolved."<br />.<br />.<br />I'm Pinky. I changed my login.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-4572549149417985212011-07-08T12:11:08.616-06:002011-07-08T12:11:08.616-06:00Jason,
The question is whether or not it is a majo...Jason,<br /><i>The question is whether or not it is a major virtue or merely seen as a practical and unavoidable fact of life.</i><br /><br />I think that something can be practical and unavoidable <b>AND</b> still be a major virtue. Depends on one's attitude when doing the work, I suppose.<br /><br />Praising hard work is clearly not the same thing as promoting hard work as a virtue in and of itself.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-35298321476732935232011-07-08T12:08:42.249-06:002011-07-08T12:08:42.249-06:00Pinky,
The textbooks I'm using don't refer...Pinky,<br />The textbooks I'm using don't refer to the Protestant work ethic. I suppose that the publishers wanted to be more inclusive.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-3529142570930645382011-07-01T22:05:25.995-06:002011-07-01T22:05:25.995-06:00I'm not familiar with private education. It...I'm not familiar with private education. It's not that hard-work isn't praised. The question is whether or not it is a major virtue or merely seen as a practical and unavoidable fact of life. In universities it isn't even considered a part of ethics. In popular writings it is often considered as part of self-help. It is totally missing from political debates!Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-86584040543908448012011-06-30T09:10:49.530-06:002011-06-30T09:10:49.530-06:00Always on watch attributes "... most of the P...Always on watch attributes <i>"... most of the Protestant forms of Christian education" ... as promoting "... the value of industry, often termed as "the Christian work ethic."</i><br />.<br />Not that it is a big deal; but, the idea is not "the Christian work ethic" but it is the Protestant Work Ethic. It does make a difference as all Christians are not Protestants.<br /><br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33296456004368475202011-06-30T08:19:26.585-06:002011-06-30T08:19:26.585-06:00One more point....The McGuffey Readers, which were...One more point....The McGuffey Readers, which were used so long as the core readers in both public and private schools, clearly promoted the value of hard work. Many famous entrepreneurs grew up reading those books, and I do not think it an accident that these entrepreneurs worked so hard.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-36867399746920328402011-06-30T08:17:30.801-06:002011-06-30T08:17:30.801-06:00No matter what one thinks of private Christian edu...No matter what one thinks of private Christian education today, most of the Protestant forms of Christian education do promote the value of industry, often termed as "the Christian work ethic." In my view, so many of our public schools simply do not successfully promote a work ethic.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-60956904128997983002011-06-26T20:30:15.459-06:002011-06-26T20:30:15.459-06:00Excellent post!Excellent post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13525858551867530960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-85125681524651183302011-06-24T15:39:14.765-06:002011-06-24T15:39:14.765-06:00Jason, I've also been meaning to give a seriou...Jason, I've also been meaning to give a serious read to Moral Sentiments, but haven't had the time.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-40839298452247982702011-06-24T12:19:54.364-06:002011-06-24T12:19:54.364-06:00Good point, Pinky, sloth wasn’t a luxury the colon...Good point, Pinky, sloth wasn’t a luxury the colonials could afford. As a matter of fact, <i>luxury</i> was suspect!<br /><br />I’d like to know more, Ben. I’ve been wanting to read Smith’s moral sentiments and some of Hume and Hutchenson’s moral works. It’s on my massive reading list. Perhaps you can give us a taste?Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46962400798117933082011-06-24T09:19:46.157-06:002011-06-24T09:19:46.157-06:00.
Smith relates virtuous with vicious?
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I never t....<br />Smith relates virtuous with vicious?<br />.<br />I never thought of that before.<br /><br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30796726205019263322011-06-24T08:44:19.872-06:002011-06-24T08:44:19.872-06:00Much of Franklin's thoughts parallel the words...Much of Franklin's thoughts parallel the words of early economists like Adam Smith. The question of "wherein does virtue consist" was examined in <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=xVkOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+theory+of+moral+sentiments&hl=en&ei=2KEEToPLFqav0AGLyLC-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wherein%20does%20virtue%20consist&f=false" rel="nofollow">Part VI of the sixth edition of Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments'</a>.<br /><br />Perhaps Adam Smith's thoughts shed some light on Phil's question?bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46015587381273728372011-06-24T08:05:27.206-06:002011-06-24T08:05:27.206-06:00This is a corrected post:
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And, I think Tom'...This is a corrected post:<br />.<br />.<br />And, I think Tom's reference should remind us of Weber's ideas regarding cross-historical analysis and of how history should be read. We can't just lay Franklin's aphorisms on today's young people carte blanche. The Bible tells us that before we get anything else, we should get understanding. Now, <b>there</b> is a virtue!<br />.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10573388544717100802011-06-24T07:51:27.155-06:002011-06-24T07:51:27.155-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-54551907224782259442011-06-24T07:44:42.658-06:002011-06-24T07:44:42.658-06:00.
Thanks for providing this post that reminds us o....<br />Thanks for providing this post that reminds us of the differences between the idea of virtue and that of chastity. We need to grasp those differences.<br />.<br />During those times the work necessary for individuals and families just to get along in their day to day existence was plainly laid out in front of Americans everywhere. No one had to guess as to what was necessary career path. As they would have said, "It is as plain as the nose on your face." For starters, what about that first winter at Plymouth?<br />.<br />All of which points up the necessity with which we are faced in the here and now of twenty-first century America.<br />.<br />Perhaps we could rethink our ideas of virtue and how they have been changed to be synonymous with chastity. Maybe we need a revival of virtue in our society?<br />.<br />What <b>were </b>the social virtues of the Founding Era?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-51662740234538883482011-06-24T05:17:07.315-06:002011-06-24T05:17:07.315-06:00Yes, I was pondering that point as well. No doubt ...Yes, I was pondering that point as well. No doubt Franklin’s work-ethic shows his Calvinist New England heritage. I believe Franklin re-packages it on a secular basis. (By secular I don’t mean anti-religious--merely “pertaining to this world”.) Franklin combines industry with an independent spirit in the sense that sloth and dependency would also come together. <br /><br />England, Scotland, and Holland--all with strong Calvinist influences--historically have a emphasis on industry and a great respect for individual liberty. Germany has the work ethic but its historic duty-bound disposition left it susceptible to paternalism (first Bismarckian and later much worse). <br /><br />Italy and to a lessor extent Spain led the revival of commerce in the 12-16th centuries. Traditional textbooks often credit the creation of the middle class and commerce with the atmosphere at the time Calvin formed his doctrines. I’m not as knowledgable of this period as I’d like to be but perhaps it’s another case of one group picking-up where another left off.<br /><br />Of course, Catholics in America thrive as much as others. It's still is worrisome that Latin America lags so much. The USA and Argentina has very similar climates and I remember reading that their GDP per capita were similar circa 1900. After we see a divergence in both wealth and political freedom. I idly wonder about a greater acceptance of paternalism south of the border.Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46947348687370403902011-06-24T02:29:34.269-06:002011-06-24T02:29:34.269-06:00Jason, this quote you cite from Franklin has alway...Jason, this quote you cite from Franklin has always nagged at me;<br /><br /><i>I have heard it remarked that the Poor in Protestant Countries on the Continent of Europe, are generally more industrious than those of Popish Countries, may not the more numerous foundations in the latter for the relief of the poor have some effect towards rendering them less provident.</i><br /><br />There a famous riff from philosopher/social scientist Max Weber that Western Civilization---specifically America---is built on the "Protestant work ethic."<br /><br />So what's interesting is that Franklin here knocks the Roman Church for making life too easy for the lazy.<br /><br />And if you take a look at the Christian world, the Catholic countries of the world---even today---do indeed lag behind the Protestant ones! Germany, Britain and America, Canada and Oz kick ass on Spain, Italy, and Latin America. Eastern Rite Russia and Greece rather suck, too. <br /><br />[France sits astride it all, defying categorization---very Catholic, very revolutionary, very modernist, very secularist, very much cheese-eating surrender monkeys.]<br /><br />Just thought I'd pop this in, and thx for yr exc post.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com