tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post5908371892820959367..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Conservatism and the American traditionBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-61835433379063816462013-03-20T07:57:32.224-06:002013-03-20T07:57:32.224-06:00I am not an American natively, and I am a sort of ...I am not an American natively, and I am a sort of anarcho-Catholic so...I really see nothing that great in American conservatism. It looks to me like a creepy, lame-duck sister to the dominant strain of liberalism. American conservatism is 'liberalism, last week' and most of its adherents are cretins who think cluster bombing foreigners is 'defense' and are more worried about imaginary terrorist threats than they are about the misanthropic criminals who make up the roll call of virtually every Republican official ever elected. They're trying to save an imaginary past through an unworkable system to reach an impossible goal. They're just as crazy as Robespierre, but not half as eloquent or intelligent.<br /><br />I have some regard for the libertarians (mainly because they don't fall for Republican/military/police worship), but overall I think the USA - for all its accomplishments - us basically not a real country and unfixable even from a technocratic viewpoint. The United States is a propositional nation, and that proposition is a non sequitur.<br /><br />America is the nation of the Enlightenment, and it deserves to die like the Enlightenment. Let a thousand nations bloom on its stinking corpse.Theophaniahttp://www.facebook.com/theophania.izquierdonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-4240520529909786532010-10-14T14:40:53.548-06:002010-10-14T14:40:53.548-06:00Kirk was one of the classic anti-DOI, traditionali...Kirk was one of the classic anti-DOI, traditionalist conservatives.<br /><br />According to Kirk, the DOI was Jefferson's wink to France to get their support.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45221354882819861702010-10-13T10:34:03.546-06:002010-10-13T10:34:03.546-06:00.
I dunno, Angie.
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I think I've probably read....<br />I dunno, Angie.<br />.<br />I think I've probably read as much about Strauss as most people; but, haven't read much of what he believed. You can read Pangle, Smith, and Drury and get three different opinions on Strauss. And, when you read Strauss, you get the sense he's just a good teacher--even excellent.<br />.<br />But, I <b>am</b> developing an opinion of him. <br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76580605414670771592010-10-13T06:03:39.932-06:002010-10-13T06:03:39.932-06:00Now, I think I remember something I read about Str...Now, I think I remember something I read about Strauss.<br /><br />Didn't he believe in a literalization of the text? This is dangerous indeed!!! As whenever one literalizes another's experience, one has assumed a universal where one does not necessarily exist...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53124330617862269762010-10-13T04:39:33.414-06:002010-10-13T04:39:33.414-06:00Didn't Strauss divide the world into ancient v...Didn't Strauss divide the world into ancient virtues, and modernity? And wasn't he interested in classicism? In this regard he would be an Aristotelian...problem there is, how and who is to judge another's virtue?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-68059819899451834152010-10-13T04:37:19.811-06:002010-10-13T04:37:19.811-06:00Didn't Plato's Republic have something to ...Didn't Plato's Republic have something to do with how government was organized, with the Philosopher King? And wasn't conservatism based on a division of society, the elite (reason) and the "common person" (revelation) according to Strauss?<br /><br />Problem here is, does this suggest that one determines another's place in society and limit their ability to be educated, because of what the local society "needs". Personal needs are trumped by local societal needs. This is a proble, I believe.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84945599513750130432010-10-12T20:24:14.319-06:002010-10-12T20:24:14.319-06:00Mark, your description of Traditional Conservatism...Mark, your description of Traditional Conservatism is very good. But remind me, didn't Kirk disparage <i>natural rights</i> as ideological abstractions and dismiss the Declaration as of little importance philosophically?Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-17963744416202757712010-10-11T14:40:48.794-06:002010-10-11T14:40:48.794-06:00Or we could say Strauss brings a much-needed clari...Or we could say Strauss brings a much-needed clarity.<br /><br />On the other hand, since he does not accept the idea of a "natural law," which the Founders did, he's only somewhat helpful. Strauss is [was] a Platonist, and the republic was not founded on Plato.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-21563071394289743702010-10-11T09:57:58.437-06:002010-10-11T09:57:58.437-06:00.
The article brings up, once again, the ideas Str....<br />The article brings up, once again, the ideas Strauss developed.<br />.<br />It seems Strauss has put us in a dither.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88775091104398667672010-10-11T04:05:12.680-06:002010-10-11T04:05:12.680-06:00Since the 1940s various popular writers have attri...Since the 1940s various popular writers have attributed to Burke the statement, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Burke never made that famous statement. However, he did say something vaguely similar in 1770: "when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."[142]Fred R. Shapiro The Yale book of Quotations 2006 pp. 115-16<br /><br />It sounds from the above quote that Burke believed that our social relations "watched our backs". I reaaly like that quote, as I believe this is what the "Tea Party" believes it is doing... Burke really didn't believe in government, did he?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-24754382301103610182010-10-10T23:49:31.009-06:002010-10-10T23:49:31.009-06:00This what I was getting at with my short post on n...This what I was getting at with my short post on not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-47479550720533990352010-10-10T21:26:32.600-06:002010-10-10T21:26:32.600-06:00GREAT information! Thanks, all!GREAT information! Thanks, all!Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-81434912817537870562010-10-10T17:36:04.125-06:002010-10-10T17:36:04.125-06:00Tertium Quid,
Welcome to American Creation! Grea...Tertium Quid,<br /><br />Welcome to American Creation! Great to have you stop by and leave a post. As always, your commentary is spot on -- I wish that I had written it myself! I particularly agree with your characterization of the aim of the Revolution. Sounds like something that Dr. Kirk or Forest MacDonald might say!<br /><br />Cheers!Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46674025366386412062010-10-10T17:33:31.304-06:002010-10-10T17:33:31.304-06:00Yes, you should read Deneen's whole post. I d...Yes, you should read Deneen's whole post. I disagree with him, but his ideas are provocative and worth pondering and responding to.<br /><br />Any political movement will have ideological aspects -- and in any society where religion plays a prominent role, religion will have a place in the public square. That may be good or bad (I think it's good, but that's just my view), but it is inevitable. <br /><br />The question isn't whether American conservatism has ideological components. It does. The question is whether the thing that makes it conservative per se is ideological. Kirk and Oakeshott insisted that it was not. Conservatism is at its core non-ideological. <br /><br />Again, that isn't to say that all conservatives or even most conservatives or even any conservatives are beyond ideology. It is simply to say that the things that makes conservatism conservative is non-ideological at its core. This is what separates conservatives from other elements on the right that are expressly ideological, e.g., libertarians, reactionaries, etc.Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-15377200158821545392010-10-10T17:31:53.721-06:002010-10-10T17:31:53.721-06:00American conservatives are liberals in their repub...American conservatives are liberals in their republicanism and their disdain for established churches. American Protestants this century, in their greatest moment of unity, are incapable of maintaining the sort of theocracy feared by secularists. American radicalism in any form is seldom strong for more than a day. Our revolution was to preserve the liberties and self-government we developed as colonials, not to reinvent public polity, the state, and humanity as tried in 1789 and 1917.<br /><br />When it comes to rhetoric, there is always someone trying to piggyback on a popular phrase or theme. "Conservative" was passe in 1953 yet popular after 1980. "Libertarian" is becoming mainstream. "Progressive" and "liberal" resurged in 2008. <br /><br />I call myself a conservative because I studied the writings of Russell Kirk and agree with them. Others called themselves conservative, and they might be pushing the term a bit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-78356603023058308462010-10-10T10:10:15.534-06:002010-10-10T10:10:15.534-06:00.
Quite interesting.
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But, when we think of conse....<br />Quite interesting.<br />.<br />But, when we think of conservatism in its present day mode, we have to see it from the practical aspects of how it is being used in the political arena. It <b>IS</b> involved in ideological thinking. Religious influences are being used to chart its course and to navigate it through any otherwise concepts as what Deneen seems to be promoting. Maybe his complete post takes all this into consideration?<br />.<br />I'll have to read it.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.com