tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post4612853005610100658..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Moses and the "Key Founders"Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-36049124434005522542009-11-14T14:51:33.170-07:002009-11-14T14:51:33.170-07:00Tom,
please send me an email. I'm at a compute...Tom,<br />please send me an email. I'm at a computer without your address and I have something to send your way.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-1706060298361831402009-11-14T14:20:32.878-07:002009-11-14T14:20:32.878-07:00"The Discovery of Freedom" by Rose Wilde...<i>"The Discovery of Freedom" by Rose Wilder Lane</i><br /><br />Yes, you mentioned her before, Angie, and I remember looking her up. She is not a reputable scholar, which explains her claim for "liberty" as we know it having Muslim roots.<br /><br />It does not.<br /><br />Pls confirm anything you read from her with an independent source before posting it here, OK? Such claims junk up the discussion.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-28196687971068434992009-11-14T08:49:59.646-07:002009-11-14T08:49:59.646-07:00I found where I had read about the Saracens.
A b...I found where I had read about the Saracens. <br /><br />A book, "The Discovery of Freedom" by Rose Wilder Lane (did she found the Libertarian Party for women?) wrote that the Saracen emir, who was a Kurd,wanted an alliance with England by giving his sistner in marriage to King Richard, the Lion-hearted, but was rejected. <br /><br />Since the Christian King would not "make peace", they attached and took Jerusalem. "They did not sack it and as soon as its defenders surrendered, they released their prisoners. The terms that the victorious emir imposed upon the invaders were, that they must go home. He gave them forty days in which to dispose of their property or pack it before leaving." (pg,104)<br /><br />The Saracen civilization ceased to exist and Lane could not find the answer are to why. But, her thesis in this book is that this was a second attempt to establlish conditions where "human energy can work under its natural individual control succeeded, as it did succeed for almost a thousand years, because anarachy was not as pure among the saracens as it was among the Israelites."(pg.109)<br /><br />She attempts and I think gives good reason to believe that this was a second attempt to establish 'freedom' against authority, but the last and final attempt was in the American Revolution.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-89481082135205834252009-11-13T22:43:39.530-07:002009-11-13T22:43:39.530-07:00And, as Islam became progressively more "reli...<i>And, as Islam became progressively more "religious," it drove philosophy and science underground, and the Muslim world began its decline from its Golden Age to the mess we see today.</i><br /><br />On this point I agree whole heartedly.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-60912427842398807002009-11-13T13:09:34.489-07:002009-11-13T13:09:34.489-07:00I don't mean to underplay the "Saracen&qu...I don't mean to underplay the "Saracen" greatness, but in our age, there's also a tendency to overplay it.<br /><br />Islam's Golden Age came to a halt with al-Ghazali's "Incoherence of the Philosophers." Ibn Rushd [Averroes in the West] cleverly tried to reply in "The Incoherence of the Incoherence," but al-Ghazali won the day.<br /><br />And yes, Aquinas saved rationality from religion in the West by reconciling them.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77141184752755620292009-11-13T10:50:22.043-07:002009-11-13T10:50:22.043-07:00Tom,
My knowledge of early Islam is pretty thin, b...Tom,<br />My knowledge of early Islam is pretty thin, but I am aware of a few notable things it did with Greek philosophy. They applied historical methods to their own history, and developed a rigiorous method of evaluating supposed sayings of Mohammed. The used Greek rationalism to work. They famously advanced Greek mathematics. They took Greek science and built optics. They began some advances in philosophy but did not achieve a reconciliation with revelation so were suppressed; but those advances were developed by Aquinas, who was able to achieve that reconciliation.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165084874363214919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-8878866624667584672009-11-13T01:10:16.104-07:002009-11-13T01:10:16.104-07:00"Saracens" is an antiquated term for the..."Saracens" is an antiquated term for the Muslim world, altho not the Turks.<br /><br />The Saracen world preserved Greek philosophy and science and passed it to Christendom around 1100-1200, but as this article argues [from 1886!], they preserved it, but did not advance it. <br /><br />http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/1886dec/hungerford.htm<br /><br />And, as Islam became progressively more "religious," it drove philosophy and science underground, and the Muslim world began its decline from its Golden Age to the mess we see today.<br /><br />By contrast, Christendom picked up the baton of philosophy and science, never to drop it, and so left its Dark Ages behind.<br /><br />Political liberty came much later in the western world, culminating in 1776, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument that it ever existed in the Muslim world.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-83208152292975443652009-11-12T21:20:21.806-07:002009-11-12T21:20:21.806-07:00As the Jews were known as "people of Torah&qu...As the Jews were known as "people of Torah", the Sarceans were also known for "freedom". I think I remember somewhere reading that these were Muslims that viewed Europeans as "barbaric" or uncultured. Liberty was the concept for Islam.<br /><br />So, we have people of the Law and people of liberty. Erring on one side or the other leads to anarchy or legalism, limiting freedom.<br /><br />Does anyone know about the Sarceans and their affliation with Islam? I don't remember where I read it...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-21088883773227410392009-11-12T20:17:53.813-07:002009-11-12T20:17:53.813-07:00A number of the top-tier Founders had a very high ...A number of the top-tier Founders had a very high opinion of Judaism and viewed the Jewish tradition as the primary source of western morality. John Adams, for example, felt that way, and wrote quite movingly on the contributions of Judaism to western civilization.<br /><br />What makes this even more impressive is the small number of practicing Jews present in the colonies and in the early Republic. Alongside Catholics, Jews definitely were at the numeric margins of American life at the time of the Founding and the early Republic.Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87555679975310713692009-11-12T15:44:03.306-07:002009-11-12T15:44:03.306-07:00Jon,
There is not much point worrying about misuse...Jon,<br />There is not much point worrying about misuse by Barton, et al. If there is evidence that Washington was not a dialectical materialist, someone will misuse it. It probably helps that people like you are willing to bang their heads against those walls again and again for the benefit of anyone who cares to have an open mind.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165084874363214919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77244225913680240992009-11-12T15:39:20.297-07:002009-11-12T15:39:20.297-07:00Oops. Maybe it was from the link in your original...Oops. Maybe it was from the link in your original post that I listened to it. Again, thanks for the post.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165084874363214919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13396046919987680702009-11-12T14:34:01.550-07:002009-11-12T14:34:01.550-07:00I did link to that in my original post. You could...I did link to that in my original post. You could tell Feiler is a pretty reasonable guy, as is Donald Lutz, from U Dallas.<br /><br />I'm just afraid of the potential misuse by the David Barton types.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-54549310727795231382009-11-12T13:52:08.568-07:002009-11-12T13:52:08.568-07:00Blogging heads has an interesting discussion betwe...Blogging heads has an interesting discussion between Robert Wright and Bruce Feiler on this topic here: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/23762Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165084874363214919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48462534737241037292009-11-12T11:54:09.090-07:002009-11-12T11:54:09.090-07:00.
This is a great topic.
.
Some of my family still....<br />This is a great topic.<br />.<br />Some of my family still puts themselves right smack dab in the hard core of Evangelical Reformed Protestant Christianity.<br /><br />The ones that even looked at the link, decided it was a bad place to go. And, that was the end of it for them.<br /><br />What a world!<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-20079554606821825922009-11-12T03:19:31.812-07:002009-11-12T03:19:31.812-07:00Erasmus was the Christian humanist in attempting t...Erasmus was the Christian humanist in attempting to reform the Church from within. <br /><br />Luther, though, had good questions that "Authority" did not want answered. Luther stood for the uneducated or disempowered as the Church was taking advantage of their ignorance (in indulgences). <br /><br />Does the Church do this today? I think so, when they use "spiritualized terms" for political ends, or politically correct ends, using another without their consent or disregarding the individual's own personal interests.<br /><br />Personal interests are deemed "selfish", becaue these might not fit in with what the Church demands (the Kingdom). Then the "theological" coercion starts, justifying the Church's position and "ends".Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-10796358741252271482009-11-12T02:56:10.280-07:002009-11-12T02:56:10.280-07:00Tom,
"Love" without justice is tepid sen...Tom,<br />"Love" without justice is tepid sentamenatlity or idealism that has not been tempered by the pragmatic problems in the world...<br /><br />"Love" without mercy is harsh and cruel, as we are limited creatures that cannot know all there is to know to make "right choices". Inevitably, we will step on another's toes. This is where ethics play into the mix in making decisions.<br /><br />I think that one has to resolve for THEMSELVES where their commitments lie, otherwise life is devalued and justice is not done.<br /><br />I am tired of the Church trying to "do good". Sometimes "doing good" is enabling another's disease. I have seen much personally where money is handed out, people deny another's abuse, or "forgivenness" is demanded without regard for the costs or without re-building trust.<br /><br />So, please, don't give me platitudes about "world peace", "world hunger", "world solutions", we can't even do what is right in this regard in our local communities.<br /><br />Is it "right" to demand another to "care" about what you think is "right"? That is the "moral quesiton", as it seems that there is a lot of Planning for certain politically correct issues, and a lack of allowing things to "be"....Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-53036254473583149272009-11-11T23:20:15.717-07:002009-11-11T23:20:15.717-07:00Just stopped in on a busy night. Not only Washingt...Just stopped in on a busy night. Not only Washington but Madison himself attributed the making of the Constitution to divine providence, not just the success of the revolution. Anybody wanna help me here? They're out there, I just forget where they lay.<br /><br />And those two weren't even particularly religious.<br /><br />It sort of fits with Angie talking "humanism." As King of Ireland educated me, Renaissance---"Christian"---humanism let man participate in God's creation, not as God's obedient dog, but as God's friends, and sons and daughters. And Renaissance humanism came well before the Enlightenment, which was kinda cold, let's face it.<br /><br />Discussion around here has been really great lately. Thx to all. We established this safe place together. Intellectual honesty is important, mutual respect is necessary, but it's only love that makes it happen, and love comes from the divine place and from no other place.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-49802248691473170572009-11-11T23:04:41.497-07:002009-11-11T23:04:41.497-07:00Is it divine providence? It is our desires He lis...Is it divine providence? It is our desires He listens to.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32347126055174210382009-11-11T21:40:01.037-07:002009-11-11T21:40:01.037-07:00I am not so sure I believe that "God answers ...I am not so sure I believe that "God answers prayer". That would mean that God intervenes in the affairs of men and I just can't believe in 'divine providence'.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-44576920429943778062009-11-11T21:25:04.945-07:002009-11-11T21:25:04.945-07:00Angie,
I believe things were set in motion clockm...Angie,<br /><br />I believe things were set in motion clockmaker style. I also believe God intervenes in response to prayer. Most people take on extreme or the other. I think the truth a balanced version.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-14704701954844501812009-11-11T21:12:39.445-07:002009-11-11T21:12:39.445-07:00KOI
There were many naturalists as our Founders.
...KOI<br />There were many naturalists as our Founders. <br />I had just finished listening to a science/religion talk by a priest and when he was asked if he believed in miracles, he said that he "officially" did, and there was much laughter. In this case, there was a "position" of believing what one didn't really adhere to. This seemed as if the Church would've "demanded" this priest to pretend that he believed in miracles. So, I imagine there are cases where for one's job, one pretends what one doesn't believe.<br /><br />The priest was talking about natural law, and determination, etc. He argued for a causal effect as Einstein said he didn't believe in God playing dice with the universe, in opposition to quantun theory where things are indeterminant.<br /><br />I guess my view of a "Bultmanian type view, where the text needs de=mythologizing....Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-55334845463762852412009-11-11T20:55:11.602-07:002009-11-11T20:55:11.602-07:00Jefferson was just one of the three first of all. ...Jefferson was just one of the three first of all. When did I say we had to make anyone believe in the supernatural. <br /><br />Daniel's point was that they could have picked any part of the Moses narrative but they chose to use the most supernatural part that shows God's intervention. It is a good point if ones knows all of the story.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22401445883595075692009-11-11T19:35:41.459-07:002009-11-11T19:35:41.459-07:00KOI,
So, what about Jefferson's "bible&qu...KOI,<br />So, what about Jefferson's "bible"? Didn't he cut out the miraculous? And how can you MAKE someone believe in the supernatural? Isn't that a choice that must be made by individuals?Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-16299349500521953772009-11-11T19:26:44.387-07:002009-11-11T19:26:44.387-07:00Daniel makes a really good point that I think is h...Daniel makes a really good point that I think is hard to refute.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-57635354271121176462009-11-11T16:58:37.112-07:002009-11-11T16:58:37.112-07:00Angie,
Take a look at the quotation: “Moses standi...Angie,<br />Take a look at the quotation: “Moses standing on the Shore, and extending his Hand over the Sea, thereby causing the same to overwhelm Pharaoh ..." Moses is not simply standing up to Pharaoh. This is not the power of reason being depicted.<br /><br />Yes, Moses and the Exodus can be viewed in many ways. He was a leader who stood against a tyrant. But this depiction is a pre-rational image of divine power.<br /><br />I said in my original response that it was probably read as metaphor rather than literally. But it does indicate that there was something more than Enlightenment Rationalism there. A picture of Moses in Pharaoh's throne room would not have the same power.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165084874363214919noreply@blogger.com