tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post4110358136566555591..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: Sandefur on Thompson's New BookBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-65997818092354879832019-12-21T22:50:01.745-07:002019-12-21T22:50:01.745-07:00Genesis and Exodus sufficed for the purposesof the...Genesis and Exodus sufficed for the purposesof the American Founding.""<br /><br />They were Christians not jews, if u r correct, they would have called themselves jews and prayed in Jehovah's name, but they prayed in Christ's name. They believed salvation is by faith not the lawOur Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-80644438880721437122019-12-04T14:27:12.175-07:002019-12-04T14:27:12.175-07:00Our Founding Truth said...
There's only one wa...<i> Our Founding Truth said...<br />There's only one way to read John 1:3; the same as Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, Philippians 2:5-6 and all the rest. To change the meaning is a red herring.</i><br /><br /><br />Genesis and Exodus sufficed for the purposes of the American Founding.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-44601830218439758862019-12-02T13:51:51.107-07:002019-12-02T13:51:51.107-07:00There's only one way to read John 1:3; the sam...There's only one way to read John 1:3; the same as Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, Philippians 2:5-6 and all the rest. To change the meaning is a red herring.<br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-23038185302975120302019-12-02T13:18:36.110-07:002019-12-02T13:18:36.110-07:00Biblical unitarians have their own understanding o...Biblical unitarians have their own understanding of John 1:1. You can put the words into a search engine and read for yourself.<br /><br />As far as:<br /><br />"Jon, don't take a chance."<br /><br />I'll buy you a beer in purgatory. Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-87284101420172040812019-12-02T10:42:09.001-07:002019-12-02T10:42:09.001-07:00Put up or shut up, Jim. You can put up not a singl...<i>Put up or shut up, Jim. You can put up not a single Founder who denied the Jews [without Christ] worshipped the same God as they.<br /><br />NOT ONE, Jim</i>.<br /><br />Of course not; myself included. You're not understanding everything. GW was correct, but I doubt he understood it, but he could of.<br /><br />It's the same Jehovah, just a different person. The apostles wrote that Yahshua is Jehovah (all capitals LORD in the O.T.). Resd John 12.<br /><br />Technically, GW was correct. We worship the same God. The Jews stumbled at the stumbling block to this day. <br /><br />So, his statement was diplomatic so as not to offend them. He would have said the same thing about the god of islam, not understanding. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-37204855262044984482019-12-01T13:52:47.053-07:002019-12-01T13:52:47.053-07:00You need to expand your mind on the different poss...<i>You need to expand your mind on the different possible alternatives. The Arian James Burgh was tremendously influential on the founding. He believed Jesus, Himself a created being, created these things. Though he believed Jesus' father created the matter of the universe with which Jesus worked. The father like the creator of clay. Jesus the potter</i>. <br /><br />Don't go beyond what the scripture says. I figured you would have read this already.<br /><br /><br />"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."<br /><br />Without the Son, nothing was made. That doesn't mean The Father couldn't do it Himself. That means Jehovah the Son is creating through Jehovah the Holy Spirit. Possibly, the universe is Jehovah the father's plan or else He's standing by. The arian you quoted, never read this, nor did he understand it.<br /><br />"<br />"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."<br /><br />Jehovah the Son, created all the atoms, neutrons, electrons, protons, atoms, and everything invisible we don't about. <br /><br />How great is Christ, yet He became a human and died for a bunch of rebels who hated Him. No one could make that up.<br /><br />Jon, don't take a chance.Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-90373278948119487432019-12-01T06:00:52.102-07:002019-12-01T06:00:52.102-07:00"Paul specifically says Christ created the he..."Paul specifically says Christ created the heavens, the earth, stars; everything. All creation was done by the Son and for the Son."<br /><br />...<br /><br />"Otherwise, the only alternative is the trinitarian view."<br /><br />You need to expand your mind on the different possible alternatives. The Arian James Burgh was tremendously influential on the founding. He believed Jesus, Himself a created being, created these things. Though he believed Jesus' father created the matter of the universe with which Jesus worked. The father like the creator of clay. Jesus the potter. <br /><br /><br />Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-75362075631433155282019-12-01T01:36:35.828-07:002019-12-01T01:36:35.828-07:00GW's quote was diplomatic and political of cou...<i>GW's quote was diplomatic and political of course. GW worshipped Christ. He called himself a Christian, not a Jew. And he didn't worship in a synagogue.</i><br /><br />Unresponsive. Put up or shut up, Jim. You can put up not a single Founder who denied the Jews [without Christ] worshipped the same God as they.<br /><br />NOT ONE, Jim.<br /><br />________________<br /><br />George Washington to the Jews of Savannah:<br /><br /><i>May the same wonder-working Deity, who long since delivering the Hebrews from their Egyptian Oppressors planted them in the promised land—whose providential agency has lately been conspicuous in establishing these United States as an independent nation—still continue to water them with the dews of Heaven and to make the inhabitants of every denomination participate in the temporal and spiritual blessings of that people whose God is Jehovah.</i><br /><br />Jehovah. No Jesus Christ. The same "wonder-working deity" as the God of the Founding.<br /><br />To prove your point, you need multiple quotes from other Founding Fathers to trump the greatest Founder of them all, George Washington, to the effect that the Jews do not worship the same God as they.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14261005753203180162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33580251031245565372019-12-01T00:18:21.675-07:002019-12-01T00:18:21.675-07:00You are also getting very close to claiming the co...You are also getting very close to claiming the colonists were so corrupt, including all the churches, that the God of the Founding fathers (Jehovah) was also the pagan god of greece, rome, the goddess of reason of the French, the god of the deists, muslims, etc . Besides possibly a few outliers, who believed that?<br /><br />There are people who believe that. Otherwise, the only alternative is the trinitarian view. Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71049775170290675852019-11-30T17:00:33.778-07:002019-11-30T17:00:33.778-07:00GW's quote was diplomatic and political of cou...GW's quote was diplomatic and political of course. GW worshipped Christ. He called himself a Christian, not a Jew. And he didn't worship in a synagogue. <br /><br />You still haven't refuted the logic:<br /><br />"The majority were Trinitarian, therefore, it follows that the majority understood the trinity [a]s Creator."<br /><br />Paul specifically says Christ created the heavens, the earth, stars; everything. All creation was done by the Son and for the Son.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84886574805469681562019-11-30T14:17:44.481-07:002019-11-30T14:17:44.481-07:00That you say anyone can argue against the trinity ...<i>That you say anyone can argue against the trinity doesn't require a response; same with anyone calling themself a Christian.</i><br /><br />Your surrender of the battlefield of ideas is noted, Jim. If you had a legitimate rebuttal you would give it.<br /><br />George Washington to the Jews of Savannah:<br /><br /><i>May the same wonder-working Deity, who long since delivering the Hebrews from their Egyptian Oppressors planted them in the promised land—whose providential agency has lately been conspicuous in establishing these United States as an independent nation—still continue to water them with the dews of Heaven and to make the inhabitants of every denomination participate in the temporal and spiritual blessings of that people whose God is Jehovah.</i><br /><br />Jehovah. No Jesus Christ. The same "wonder-working deity" as the God of the Founding.<br /><br />To prove your point, you need multiple quotes from other Founding Fathers to trump the greatest Founder of them all, George Washington, to the effect that the Jews do not worship the same God as they.<br /><br />You, of course, cannot, because they don't exist. Neither logic nor fact are on your side.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-69411843243658404932019-11-30T11:53:45.824-07:002019-11-30T11:53:45.824-07:00That you say anyone can argue against the trinity ...That you say anyone can argue against the trinity doesn't require a response; same with anyone calling themself a Christian.<br /><br />The majority were Trinitarian, therefore, it follows that the majority understood the trinity is Creator. It was an established fact from the beginning. Their error was not writing it all into the founding. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-52497518702110545342019-11-30T03:49:54.964-07:002019-11-30T03:49:54.964-07:00Samuel Barrett was not a founding father therefore...<i>Samuel Barrett was not a founding father therefore his flawed opinion is irrelevant.</i><br /><br /><br />John Adams was a Founding Father and believed more or else the same. One can argue against the Trinity even using the Bible, and the unitarians were not even the first Christians to do so.<br /><br /><br />You're really getting on my nerves, Jim. You are fully aware of these facts that contradict your argument yet you continue to dodge them. I had hoped your return to our pages would exhibit some growth.<br /><br /><i>The ff's rejected natural law without Christ.</i><br /><br />Give us just ONE example of this. The Founding Fathers accepted natural law and did not use Jesus Christ to argue it.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-76880944430694753832019-11-28T21:26:13.760-07:002019-11-28T21:26:13.760-07:00The trinity is relevant because the democrats that...The trinity is relevant because the democrats that ratified natural law into the founding were Trinitarian. <br /><br />Samuel Barrett was not a founding father therefore his flawed opinion is irrelevant. <br /><br />You keep peddling your incorrect notion that anything other than mainstream historical Christianity was protestant. The reformers refuted heresy the same as roman catholicism and the anabaptists. <br /><br />Protestant sects were not different in theology like you say. They were different in worship and unessentials. That proves a national church wasn't impossible; the ff's just blew it.<br /><br />The ff's rejected natural law without Christ. That's why I told you the democrats were Trinitarian; Lee, SA, Dickinson, Henry and Mason come to mind.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43739501985546556822019-11-28T17:35:46.627-07:002019-11-28T17:35:46.627-07:00The Trinity yes or no is really irrelevant. Some e...The Trinity yes or no is really irrelevant. Some even used the Bible to argue against it.<br /><br />https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/100-scriptural-arguments-for-the-unitarian-faith<br /><br /><br />The "Unitarian Controversy" had little or no effect on American history except to illustrate that Protestantism had such a wide swath of theologies that establishing any sort of church on the national level was a patent impossibility to begin with.<br /><br />Natural law works just fine with a Jehovah, a monotheistic creator-God who established a natural order, and according to atheists such as Murray Rothbard, even without one.<br /><br />http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2009/04/primer-on-natural-law.htmlTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-42729096095550121562019-11-26T16:28:21.842-07:002019-11-26T16:28:21.842-07:00It's not a moot point to the Right. They rest ...It's not a moot point to the Right. They rest on that assumption. All I'm claiming is the ff's were ignorant in not naming their Saviour and Lord as the creator of natural law, since God is the creator of the mind. Did they forget? I doubt it. <br /><br />Did u know most of the colonial democrats in the 18th century were Trinitarian? Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-2261196830751000242019-11-26T15:24:44.009-07:002019-11-26T15:24:44.009-07:00"Natural law is true only if the creator of n..."Natural law is true only if the creator of natural law is acknowledged, otherwise it's natural law of the deists and Cato."<br /><br />That is Leo Strauss's criticism as well. But even if true, your objection that God was left out of the Founding principles is now moot.<br /><br /><i>This is what is called the law of nature, “which, being coeval with mankind, and dictated by God himself, is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid, derive all their authority, mediately, or immediately, from this original.”---Blackstone.</i>Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77958811072704315462019-11-25T22:46:58.069-07:002019-11-25T22:46:58.069-07:00Natural law is true only if the creator of natural...Natural law is true only if the creator of natural law is acknowledged, otherwise it's natural law of the deists and Cato. <br /><br />Natural rights are not in the bible and thetefore cannot be from God. They are political rights, contrary to what the ff's saidOur Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-33505608151511104412019-11-25T19:20:23.799-07:002019-11-25T19:20:23.799-07:00Natural law is most famously in Romans 2:
“When G...Natural law is most famously in Romans 2:<br /><br /><i>“When Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts” (vv. 14–15).<br /><br />- Romans 2:12–16</i><br /><br />"Even those without access to Scripture outlaw the killing of innocent human beings and have clear determinations of when killing is murder and when it is not. The law of God on their hearts tells them there are cases when killing is clearly wrong, even if they do not always interpret this law rightly.<br /><br />The <i>lex naturalis</i>, or natural law, is what theologians have called the universal sense of right and wrong. Western jurisprudence has been decisively shaped by it, although recent years have seen public education, elected officials, and law schools increasingly turn their backs on this time-honored concept."<br /><br />https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/natural-law-romans/<br /><br /><br /><br />How you can be unfamiliar with this argument is beyond me, Jim. None of us are interested in your own personal theology or anyone else's---only in the prevailing theology of the Founding.<br /><br />This is not a theology blog; we study only the HISTORY of theology, without taking sides.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-44023808808710949092019-11-25T17:38:05.456-07:002019-11-25T17:38:05.456-07:00Natural law is the ultimate law
No. Says the one ...<i>Natural law is the ultimate law</i><br /><br />No. Says the one who spoke of it first; Moses and the one who was the final messenger to the ff's (gentiles); Paul.<br /><br />Hamilton was young when he wrote "The Farmer Refuted". 20 years old according to Hamilton himself. It is impossible for natural law to be any authority for anything because it's completely subjective, with no foundation underneath it. The ff's rejected the true authority behind natural law by rejecting Christ as the creator of natural law: John 1:1-4, 14.<br /><br /><i>Natural rights are grounded in the natural law</i><br /><br />More proof that the idea is subjective and hopeless. The mind determines what's right and wrong in matural law, not the words of the creator of the mind. And the creator gave no rights to man in His word. Therefore, it follows God cannot be the author of natural rights. <br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41161981620968811262019-11-25T16:06:31.008-07:002019-11-25T16:06:31.008-07:00Natural law is the ultimate law, but the first ord...Natural law is the ultimate law, but the first order of business for the Founders was natural <i>rights</i>, as opposed to conventional political rights. Alexander Hamilton to the notorious Tory Rev, Samuel Seabury, in "The Farmer Refuted":<br /><br /><i>The first thing that presents itself is a wish, that “I had, explicitly, declared to the public my ideas of the natural rights of mankind. Man, in a state of nature (you say) may be considered, as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, and, then, the weak must submit to the strong.”<br /><br /><br />I shall, henceforth, begin to make some allowance for that enmity, you have discovered to the natural rights of mankind. For, though ignorance of them in this enlightened age cannot be admitted, as a sufficient excuse for you; yet, it ought, in some measure, to extenuate your guilt. If you will follow my advice, there still may be hopes of your reformation. Apply yourself, without delay, to the study of the law of nature. I would recommend to your perusal, Grotius. Puffendorf [sic], Locke, Montesquieu, and Burlemaqui. I might mention other excellent writers on this subject; but if you attend, diligently, to these, you will not require any others.<br /><br />There is so strong a similitude between your political principles and those maintained by Mr. Hobb[e]s, that, in judging from them, a person might very easily mistake you for a disciple of his. His opinion was, exactly, coincident with yours, relative to man in a state of nature. He held, as you do, that he was, then, perfectly free from all restraint of law and government. Moral obligation, according to him, is derived from the introduction of civil society; and there is no virtue, but what is purely artificial, the mere contrivance of politicians, for the maintenance of social intercourse. But the reason he run into this absurd and impious doctrine, was, that he disbelieved the existence of an intelligent superintending principle, who is the governor, and will be the final judge of the universe.<br /><br />...<br /><br />Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed, that the deity, from the relations, we stand in, to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is, indispensibly, obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution whatever.<br /><br />This is what is called the law of nature, “which, being coeval with mankind, and dictated by God himself, is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid, derive all their authority, mediately, or immediately, from this original.” Blackstone.<br /><br />Upon this law, depend the natural rights of mankind, the supreme being gave existence to man, together with the means of preserving and beatifying that existence. He endowed him with rational faculties, by the help of which, to discern and pursue such things, as were consistent with his duty and interest, and invested him with an inviolable right to personal liberty, and personal safety.</i><br /><br /><br />Natural rights are grounded in the natural law, not in politics and government. And frankly, especially per Pufendorf, Protestantism and its countless sects and theological innovations made the establishment of individual freedom a necessity, and the natural law was logical fertile ground for the unquestionably Protestant milieu that was the American Founding to plant it.<br /><br />https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/pufendorf-and-religious-toleration-iiTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-14117619648434382652019-11-23T21:39:33.903-07:002019-11-23T21:39:33.903-07:00His exploration of such questions as the relations...<i>His exploration of such questions as the relationship between natural rights and natural law, and between Lockean thought and the republican theories that the Founders drew from the ancient Romans</i>, <br /><br />The author may get some things correct in his book, but most of the book has to be suspect if similar to the above quote. The colonists did not know doctrine of the Greeks and Romans, especially natural law. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Our Founding Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072993191810565535noreply@blogger.com