tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post3469612501043976771..comments2024-03-17T14:55:33.289-06:00Comments on American Creation: Frazer replies to BabkaBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-35698898207599949392008-11-13T16:45:00.000-07:002008-11-13T16:45:00.000-07:00TVD writes:"Locke and Jefferson may have indeed "s...TVD writes:<BR/><BR/><EM>"Locke and Jefferson may have indeed "secularized" the currents of Puritan thought, but the notions of self-government, the illegitimacy of bad kings, and that sovereignty rested with the people, not the ruler, were well on their way through the religious thinkers."</EM><BR/><BR/>I agree. Didn't even the early Puritans (this is where I miss the insight of Lori Stokes at this blog) after the English Civil War also make a biblical case AGAINST monarchy?Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43955014444311698182008-11-11T23:22:00.000-07:002008-11-11T23:22:00.000-07:00Jefferson cited in his autobiography as "precedent...Jefferson cited in his autobiography as "precedent" the "Declaration to Justify Their Proceedings and<BR/>Resolutions to Take Up Arms" of August 4, 1642, during what is now called the "Puritan Revolution" in Britain. <BR/><BR/>http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/decparliament.html<BR/><BR/><BR/>Sorry if I was unclear.<BR/><BR/>[If I can believe the internet. As this is a comments section and not my own formal post, I didn't double-check whether it's indeed in TJ's autobio. I expressed apologies in advance, as there are only so many hours in the day. But it looks like Jefferson used the "Lives and Fortunes" part in the D of I.]<BR/><BR/>Further, it seems impossible to me that the principles of <I>Lex, Rex</I> weren't "in the air" that Locke breathed. The "Puritan Revolution" ended up killing the king, fer crissakes. people notice stuff like that.<BR/><BR/>I think it's too literal and argumentative to ask for direct quotations of things like <I>Lex, Rex</I> before we allow that they were influential. Jon, I remember George Harrison blathering on about his "influences" without ever mentioning Lennon and McCartney, who only taught him 90% of what he knew.<BR/><BR/>We scarcely notice the air we breathe. Or as one fish said to the other, the water's cold today. The other fish replied, "What water?"<BR/><BR/>As to the influence of <I>Lex, Rex</I>, it appears to me that the fact that Charles II banned it and publicly burned it, and that Samuel Rutherford was removed from his job and charged with high treason because of it, Dr. Frazer's contention that Rutherford was "fairly obscure in his day" warrants further inquiry.<BR/><BR/>[Rutherford was condemned to death by the crown, BTW, but God or Providence or luck took him first...]Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32225978242133491482008-11-11T18:04:00.000-07:002008-11-11T18:04:00.000-07:00I don't think (I may be wrong) that Jefferson ever...I don't think (I may be wrong) that Jefferson ever cited Lex Rex. I'd like to see the citation.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-80811069231750760612008-11-11T15:33:00.000-07:002008-11-11T15:33:00.000-07:00The paper below argues there were two main strains...The paper below argues there were two main strains of Calvinism in America, each finding their own way to be pro-revolution.<BR/><BR/>http://www.artsci.lsu.edu/voegelin/EVS/2006%20Papers/Maddox.htm<BR/><BR/>Moreover, Locke's parents ran in the same Puritan-Calvinist circles as Rutherford. Even if they weren't personally acquainted [I haven't found out], it seems unlikely Locke was unacquainted with at least the principles in <I>Lex, Rex</I><BR/><BR/>Further, the internet tells me Jefferson references this Puritan Revolution-era [1642, pre-Locke] document as a "precedent" for the D of I<BR/><BR/>http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/decparliament.html<BR/><BR/>and it indeed appears he clipped language from it in one or two places.<BR/><BR/>Locke and Jefferson may have indeed "secularized" the currents of Puritan thought, but the notions of self-government, the illegitimacy of bad kings, and that sovereignty rested with the people, not the ruler, were well on their way through the religious thinkers.<BR/><BR/>[Aquinas and the "Schoolmen" got there first of course, as the erudite Algernon Sidney freely admitted.]Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com