tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post2759429022492677657..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: Robert P. Hunt on Leo Strauss IIIBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-86940253903523950432010-08-15T12:52:10.971-06:002010-08-15T12:52:10.971-06:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtuehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_VirtueTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-21121671847436478852010-08-15T12:46:35.385-06:002010-08-15T12:46:35.385-06:00.
But, today, Ayn Rand has come to be the philosop....<br />But, today, Ayn Rand has come to be the philosopher of the far right.<br />.<br />Too bad there are so few of us who can live up to the quality our Founding Fathers presented to us.<br />.<br />Too damned bad!!<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-38774003962940792802010-08-15T12:43:30.612-06:002010-08-15T12:43:30.612-06:00.
What was great about our Founding Fathers was th....<br />What was great about our Founding Fathers was that they were a <b><i>DISINTERESTED</i></b> lot and truly cared about We the People more than they cared about themselves.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71300946568248270842010-08-15T12:40:27.821-06:002010-08-15T12:40:27.821-06:00I didn't get into the noble lie thing, but wha...I didn't get into the noble lie thing, but what's missing is that people actually believe it, that there is a God and our rights come from him.<br /><br />Now you might be above all that superstition, and some leaders might cynically exploit it, but that does not make it a lie.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-84586531505813803522010-08-15T12:35:43.317-06:002010-08-15T12:35:43.317-06:00.
But, that's where reason come in, Tom.
.
And....<br />But, that's where reason come in, Tom.<br />.<br />And leaders give out with the Noble Lie so that order is established.<br />.<br />Half a dozen of one thing and six of the other.<br />.<br />The problem is that--sooner or later--the ones who keep the herd in line will get carried away with the myth and will come to believe it themselves. Or, at least, they will see that it is the way to actually gain the power necessary to rule the world. That's what Hitler did. And, I think it is the road that the neocons were on; but, they didn't consider our Constitution that only gives them eight years to do their dirty work.<br /><br />Some of us even believe that our top leaders are true believers.<br />. <br />Ground Hog Day with Bill Murray doing the weather...<br />.<br />Blah Blah <b>Blah</b> Blah BlahPhil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30860080923362910422010-08-15T12:13:59.950-06:002010-08-15T12:13:59.950-06:00We're slipping into a state where work and rec...<i>We're slipping into a state where work and recreation are the only things--a joyless quest for joy. Right, Tom?</i><br /><br />That is the criticism of modernity. Bourgeois materialism? No philosophy [Strauss' biggest concern]. No God, no <i>telos</i> [the Pope's, along the same lines]. No reason for being, except creating a reason [existentialism], making man the measure of all things?<br /><br />What's so great about man? Where is the reason for "creating" arbitrary, subjective reasons for being in the first place? Who needs reasons? Why not just be hedonistic, if it feels good, do it?<br /><br />Who needs liberty, if the state provides for all our material needs and pleasures? Give us bread, circuses. As Spinal Tap's late drummer Mick Shrimpton put it, "As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll."Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48747213985286621062010-08-15T10:54:54.385-06:002010-08-15T10:54:54.385-06:00.
So, all in all, Strauss lays the source of Ameri....<br />So, all in all, Strauss lays the source of America's Founding in modernity as it drew out the ideals of the Christian traditions that set the form for the colonial regime. It was the direct result of liberalism which brought about democracy which, in turn, evolved into liberal democracy in the late nineteenth century America after the Civil War.<br />.<br />According to Strauss, it looks like the people are losing the conviction in their mind as a result of liberalism, KOI, and the security of our liberties is going down the tubes. We're slipping into a state where work and recreation are the only things--a joyless quest for joy. Right, Tom?<br />.<br />T.J. seems to have been correct.<br />.<br />Ya think?<br />.<br />So, is a national socialism the answer?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-46018010739558053072010-08-15T10:33:43.553-06:002010-08-15T10:33:43.553-06:00.
Of course you see that what Strauss is saying is....<br />Of course you see that what Strauss is saying is that the German nation was in a "rudderless" and "meaningless" condition.<br /><br />Heidegger was just then beginning to explicate existentialism. Strauss is saying that this is what laid the groundwork that eventually brought the National Socialists (Nazis) to power.<br />.<br />Strauss puts existentialism on the shoulders of liberal democracy which was coming out of Washington, D.C., as far as the Germans were involved. So, he's laying the responsibility at the feet of academia as it was in central Europe.<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70625663301878981782010-08-15T10:23:39.101-06:002010-08-15T10:23:39.101-06:00"What doesn't have to be what way?'
..."What doesn't have to be what way?'<br /><br /><br />A rudderless meaningless life. But this is not the site for that discussion. <br /><br />What is relevant to here is the seeming hopelessness of the society that forsakes the idea of God. Strauss, if he was an atheist, must have been miserable. At least Marx and others had some hope for a future better world on earth. <br /><br />With that said, many religions that focus on the nether world to the exclusion of this world do that same thing in the other direction. They live miserably and with no purpose for the here and now waiting to die. <br /><br />Anyway this has been a good discussion.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-90955928242843745342010-08-15T08:51:26.309-06:002010-08-15T08:51:26.309-06:00.
And, who was it, Tom, called it the "sickne....<br />And, who was it, Tom, called it the "sickness unto death"? Sarte?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-92183324493271443072010-08-15T06:07:36.788-06:002010-08-15T06:07:36.788-06:00.
What doesn't have to be what way?
..<br />What doesn't have to be what way?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-75087122047732763602010-08-14T19:14:15.791-06:002010-08-14T19:14:15.791-06:00Pinky,
It does not have to be that way.Pinky,<br /><br />It does not have to be that way.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-70938085712240501352010-08-14T18:53:03.649-06:002010-08-14T18:53:03.649-06:00Thx, JRB. Hogeland was on C-Span today. Exc stuf...Thx, JRB. Hogeland was on C-Span today. Exc stuff.<br />____________<br /><br />Pinky, I believe Strauss calls it the joyless quest for joy."Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-92028747456687248292010-08-14T17:18:37.144-06:002010-08-14T17:18:37.144-06:00Side note
Comments have made it through moderatio...Side note<br /><br />Comments have made it through moderation at William Hogeland's place.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-5281388862860549612010-08-14T13:56:27.300-06:002010-08-14T13:56:27.300-06:00.
Sound familiar?
..<br />Sound familiar?<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-7848623203216259222010-08-14T13:53:05.924-06:002010-08-14T13:53:05.924-06:00From Strauss in his lecture, An Introduction to He...From Strauss in his lecture, An Introduction to Heideggerian Existentialism:<br /><br />"Existentialism belongs to the decline of Europe.<br />"...<br />"...<br />"The First World War shook Europe to its foundations. Men lost their sense of direction . The faith in progress decayed. The only people who kept that faith in its original vigor were the communists. But precisely this showed to the non-communist the delusion of progress. Spengler's <i>Decline of the West</i> seemed to be much more credible. But one had to be inhuman to leave it at Spengler's prognosis. Is there no hope for Europe? And therewith for mankind? It was in the spirit of such hope that Heidegger perversely welcomed 1933. He became disappointed and withdrew. What did the failure of the Nazis teach him? Nietzsche's hope of a united Europe ruling the planet, of a Europe not only united b ut revitalized by this new, transcendent responsibility of planetary rule, had proved to be a delusion. A world society controlled either by Washington or Moscow appeared to be approaching. For Heidegger it did not make any difference whether Washington or Moscow would be the center. America and Soviet Russia are metaphysically the same. What a decisive for him is that this world society is to him worse than a nightmare. He called it the 'night of the world.' It means indeed as Marx had predicted, the victory of an ever more completely urbanized, ever more completely technological West over the whole planet--complete leveling and uniformity regardless of whether it is brought about by iron compulsion or by soapy advertisement of the output of mass production. It means unity of the human race on the lowest level, complete emptiness of life, self perpetuating doctrine without rhyme or reason; no leisure, no concentration, no elevation, no withdrawal; nothing but work and recreation; no individuals and no people, but instead 'lonely crowds.'"<br />.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-88472653782115015592010-08-14T10:55:25.934-06:002010-08-14T10:55:25.934-06:00"Yes, I agree we do a nice balancing act arou..."Yes, I agree we do a nice balancing act around here, preferring light to heat. The heat comes pretty quick if you're not careful."<br /><br />I think we do a good job too. I have seen more light than heat.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-6885227146509875372010-08-14T10:51:30.856-06:002010-08-14T10:51:30.856-06:00"The question is whether Euro-style "mod..."The question is whether Euro-style "modern" liberalism is the same as the "classical liberalism" of the Founders"<br /><br />This is the ultimate question and is at the center of my interest in this topic. I was also the question at the center of my post on Fukuyama.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-71841323528331742892010-08-14T10:45:50.513-06:002010-08-14T10:45:50.513-06:00"Well, the informal rule on the board is to s..."Well, the informal rule on the board is to stay clear of current politics as much as possible."<br /><br />As the author of this post I say lets wave that rule for this post in that at times the historical discussion gains clarity when the present is considered. That is if anyone is still commenting.<br /><br />I would say this should be the exception and not the rule IMO.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-4200372935621189162010-08-14T10:42:33.504-06:002010-08-14T10:42:33.504-06:00If you ask me, a literal Romans 13 is tolerable so...If you ask me, a literal Romans 13 is tolerable sometimes, noxious others, and occasionally disasterous. How to judge the difference, unless you are eternally hostile to government? But a defiant attitude almost always comes packages with its own problems."<br /><br /><br />Centuries of Christian thought on proper ways to resist tyranny deal with all this. It seems the main goal was to achieve a balanced system that neither promoted tyranny or anarchy. <br /><br />I think we see the roots of this in the DOI when Jefferson lists the abuses of the king and says that government should not be changed for light and transient reasons. <br /><br />A little discussed topic is how this more conservative view seen when he had work with others and the Congress for consensus seems to contradict his more personal thoughts about a revolution being good every 20 years or so.King of Irelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793825722325763371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-91100674710593444232010-08-13T18:16:06.476-06:002010-08-13T18:16:06.476-06:00That's all I ask, JRB, look at the evidence, d...That's all I ask, JRB, look at the evidence, decide for yourself. I'm not up on the controversy and am not particularly interested in defending against anti-Catholic agendae. I was aware that Pius' defenders claim they debunked the charges.<br /><br />I did notice the article claim that <br /><br /><i>John Cornwell recently stated that he now finds it "impossible to judge" Pius XII, in light of "the debates and evidence" that followed publication of his now-discredited Hitler's Pope.</i><br /><br />But I have no doubt that many, perhaps the pope himself, had feet of clay. But Rabbi Dalin did call Pius a "Righteous Gentile."<br /><br />As for Strauss, I admit elsewhere that we are indeed Straussians in our approach: as Hogeland put it, that we parse the texts "to death." But this is not a bad thing in my view---I don't even think historians have read them all that carefully yet. Like amateur astronomers, we can contribute to the greater study.<br /><br /><i>As to the appropriateness of breaking away from the founding into the "future," I think that there are direct implications for America's founding ideolological principles in later history and our sense of nationhood (after all we did take our principles on the road to Europe).</i><br /><br />Yes, I agree we do a nice balancing act around here, preferring light to heat. The heat comes pretty quick if you're not careful.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-34022680807566909492010-08-13T17:00:06.053-06:002010-08-13T17:00:06.053-06:00TVD,
I read the Catholic League article. While i...TVD,<br /><br />I read the Catholic League article. While it doesn't call out any specifics regarding Phayer's book it does give some resources rebutting accusations against the RCC and the Pope's role. I'll keep Phayer and the CL resources on the list.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-1440268980127745992010-08-13T16:46:17.512-06:002010-08-13T16:46:17.512-06:00TVD,
I'll look at - and copy/paste into my &q...TVD,<br /><br />I'll look at - and copy/paste into my "to read" list - the article that you cite. As I said I've placed so much on the list I don't want to waste time and these days have a tendancy to want to know what I'm getting into.<br /><br />As to the appropriateness of breaking away from the founding into the "future," I think that there are direct implications for America's founding ideolological principles in later history and our sense of nationhood (after all we did take our principles on the road to Europe).<br /><br />I see it as bearing on Straus' thesis that was being discussed.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point.jimmiraybobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-62065870329925851862010-08-13T16:30:34.482-06:002010-08-13T16:30:34.482-06:00The question is whether Euro-style "modern&qu...The question is whether Euro-style "modern" liberalism is the same as the "classical liberalism" of the Founders [and the British as well, although their courses diverge].<br /><br />But thx for the refocus, Pinky.<br /><br />I will add here that I wonder if German "rationalism," the term for 19th century Biblical criticism that have much in common with, say, Jefferson's, resulted in a backlash, the "fideism" of the early 20th century in Germany.<br /><br />Karl Barth in particular led the way, his fideism very close to what we call today "evangelicalism" in America: far more hostile to reason, indeed Barth was hostile to Thomism and "natural theology." Back to "faith alone saves," and more Lutheran than Luther.<br /><br />It's an area that I haven't done a lot of work on, but have always thought there may be something there. Comment and corrections invited.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-40106696749678290732010-08-13T16:24:44.533-06:002010-08-13T16:24:44.533-06:00.
ERATA
.
This line: "... and not to what cam....<br /><b>ERATA</b><br />.<br />This line: "... and not to what came to the downfall of Nazi Germany."<br /><br />Should have read: "...and not to what came to <b>BE</b> the downfall of Nazi Germany.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.com