tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post2519095694240393387..comments2024-03-27T18:18:11.525-06:00Comments on American Creation: Eh, Could Anyone Hear George Washington Say "So Help Me God"?Brad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-9647297289279855482011-05-09T13:13:29.089-06:002011-05-09T13:13:29.089-06:00Thank for that reference, Mr. Soller. It seems SHM...Thank for that reference, Mr. Soller. It seems SHMG keeps appearing here and there as a common affirmation of conviction, such as one might want to say upon taking an oath.<br /><br />http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2009/04/so-help-me-god.html<br /><br />JayMagpie Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01390264410632162085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-59472809310269594482011-05-08T15:53:59.882-06:002011-05-08T15:53:59.882-06:00"I am always at a loss to know how much to be...<b>"I am always at a loss to know how much to believe of my own stories."</b> - from <i>Tales of a Traveler</i>, 1824Washingston Irvinghttp://myfivebest.com/five-reasons-washington-irving-is-still-important-today/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-77969744138544846582011-05-07T21:52:48.464-06:002011-05-07T21:52:48.464-06:00First off, Washington Irving was not the first per...First off, Washington Irving was not the first person to have GW say SHMG. Rufus W. Griswold is the responsible party. He scooped Washington Irving by three years. Griswold also said that GW closed his eyes when he said SHMG. That's a nice touch. Griswold could have dreamed it up, learned of the SHMG tidbit from Irving from some other unknown source, reliable or not.<br /><br />We do know that Washington Irving, except for Griswold's SHMG contribution, plagiarized his inaugural narrative from Eliza Susan Morton Quincy. At another point, Irving happens to get it wrong when he described only two horses pulling Washington's Coach of State, when in fact there were four horses. All other coaches had two. That's an odd oversight.<br /><br />Now, if anyone is honestly interested in knowing "Why Washington Irving might have put this particular phrase [SHMG] into the first president's mouth?" I'd suggest reading another "historical" account written by Irving with the title, <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=M5LgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA463&hl=en&ei=fQ_GTav-MMfg0QGyp5XwBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow"><i>Chronicles of the Conquest of Granada</i></a>, 1829, page 463.Ray Sollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07950061062767093373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-91758921869260266212011-05-07T13:55:51.174-06:002011-05-07T13:55:51.174-06:00It's that time of year again.
Rather than rep...It's that time of year again.<br /><br />Rather than repeat myself, I offer the link to my answer to the question:<br /><br />http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2009/04/so-help-me-god.html<br /><br />I remind our readers that nearly everything we think we know about history before, say, the mid 19th century, is based on accounts of single individuals who had no recording devices more sophisticated than than their writing implements. Plutarch was not a peer-reviewed historian or credentialed journalist, yet we take his histories seriously as glimpses into the ancient world.<br /><br />Have we ever talked about why Washington Irving might have put this particular phrase into the first president's mouth? It would be an unlikely choice of words if it is in fact impossible Washington could have said it.<br /><br />JayMagpie Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01390264410632162085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-22429980020734841302011-05-02T23:14:21.430-06:002011-05-02T23:14:21.430-06:00Brian, you lost me with your reference to Davey Cr...Brian, you lost me with your reference to Davey Crockett. What does Crockett to do with oath-taking or prayer? <br /><br />Nothing you've written suggests that you've read my post or examined the links that are provided.<br /><br />Prayer was a part of GW's life. Ashbel Green said as much: "The place of the chaplain was directly opposite to the President. The company stood while the blessing was asked, and on a certain occasion, the President's mind was probably occupied with some interesting concern, and on going to the table he began to ask a blessing himself. He uttered but a word or two, when bowing to me, he requested me to proceed, which I accordingly did. I mention this because it shows that President Washington always asked a blessing himself, when a chaplain was not present."Ray Sollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07950061062767093373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-30534130136853720532011-05-02T15:24:37.906-06:002011-05-02T15:24:37.906-06:00I put this debate in the same category as whether ...I put this debate in the same category as whether Davey Crockett went down fighting at the Alamo or whether he was captured and <i>then</i> killed. <br /><br />The "tradition" is that Crockett went down fighting. (And that's what John Wayne did, after all! So that should settle it, right? :-) ). Seriously, the tradition is that he died fighting, and what we know about the man seems to support that tradition. The same could be said of Washington adding "so help me God." <br /><br />However, contemporary evidence seems to suggest that Crockett was among those who initially survived and were captured. Whether Crockett surrendered or whether he was simply overpowered is not something any of us can know. <br /><br />Either way, the end result is that Davey Crockett died. And no one (even those who believe that he was captured and then killed) would suggest he was a coward. He valiantly served at the Alamo, and he courageously sacrificed his life in doing so. The chronological details change none of that. <br /><br />Likewise, with GW, I concede that there is sufficient evidence to call the "tradition" of GW saying SHMG into very serious question. So much so that the official government publications should, at the least, put some kind of qualifier or disclaimer on any such assertion that GW said SHMG. <br /><br />But, at the end of the debate, the facts remain that GW believed in God and prayed to God -- and used his inauguration (via his speech at least) to call on the American people to do the same.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-68323211769902642222011-05-02T11:19:39.035-06:002011-05-02T11:19:39.035-06:00Here, also, for the sake of those new to American ...Here, also, for the sake of those new to American Creation and in the spirit of the Equal Fairness Doctrine is <a href="http://briantubbs.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Brian Tubbs</a> in his June 30, 2008 blog, <a href="http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/06/in-defense-of-so-help-me-god.html" rel="nofollow">In Defense of "So Help me God"</a>.<br /><br />Brian likes saying, "We simply don't know if he did or did not [add SHMG presidential oath of office]". Ultimately that may be true, but the preponderance of the available evidence weighs in favor of Washington having not done so. <br /><br />If one is going to rely on "oral tradition," then the probablilty of there being a reliable source which can be used "In Defense of SHMG" only decreases when the assertion is made that there were very few persons who "were close enough to hear it." This approach is counter-productive, because neither Rufus Griswold, Washington Irving, or their associates ever circulated in the same social circles as Reverend Ashbel Green or even "Parson" Weems where they could have heard of GW saying SHMG from someone who was originally close enough to hear it. So, for whatever it's worth, there doesn't appear to be any record of Ashbel Green or Parson Weems claiming that GW adding anything to his constitutional oath.Ray Sollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07950061062767093373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-41346049513397677932011-05-01T12:53:29.900-06:002011-05-01T12:53:29.900-06:00Brian Tubbs comments are all correct, but it omits...Brian Tubbs comments are all correct, but it omits a significant detail, so I will add it here:<br /><br />7) The reason why we will, and we should, continue to revisit this historical question is that the Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies website continues to assert that George Washington began the precedent of appending shmG to the presidential oath office.Explicit Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05501109533475045969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-32975812394668633382011-04-30T22:31:23.946-06:002011-04-30T22:31:23.946-06:00Ray, thanks for the update and summary!
Brian, ni...Ray, thanks for the update and summary!<br /><br />Brian, nice overview of the historic, and political implications.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-7850370143372431912011-04-30T16:36:26.904-06:002011-04-30T16:36:26.904-06:00Great stuff Ray as usual.Great stuff Ray as usual.Jonathan Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04079637406589278386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-48649975630010717272011-04-30T13:15:39.658-06:002011-04-30T13:15:39.658-06:00We've covered this ground before, of course, b...We've covered this ground before, of course, but for the sake of those new to American Creation...<br /><br />1) Ray Soller, through his research, has established pretty clearly that there's no contemporary evidence to definitively establish that Washington added "so help me God" to the oath. <br /><br />2) If one takes all the contemporary evidence together and interprets that evidence literally (without regard to any oral traditions), then it would appear GW did NOT say "so help me God" to the oath.<br /><br />3) The preceding facts, however, do not completely negate the possibility that GW said the words. We simply don't know if he did or did not.<br /><br />4) What we DO know is that GW appealed to God in his inaugural address. And did so very emphatically. <br /><br />5) If the official administering the oath of office requires the President-Elect to say the words "so help me God" (which are NOT in the constitutional wording), then a constitutional breach will have occurred. The Constitution clearly forbids any religious test.<br /><br />6) HOWEVER...if the President-Elect decides, on his own, to ask the official to prompt him or her with the words at the end of the oath OR chooses to add the words himself herself, that is perfectly acceptable. No constitutional breach has taken place and no harm has been done.Brian Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412421076480479001noreply@blogger.com