tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post1290474499611210252..comments2024-03-28T10:44:30.518-06:00Comments on American Creation: On John Adams: "This Awful Blasphemy," Extraterrestrials [no lie!], and the Jews tooBrad Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-11732474964360440432011-05-26T16:42:47.332-06:002011-05-26T16:42:47.332-06:00Ok, I stand corrected Brad. ThanksOk, I stand corrected Brad. ThanksAlisa_Lawson_Photographer@yahoo.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18279151567515631639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-14223627248417764102011-05-26T08:05:49.665-06:002011-05-26T08:05:49.665-06:00That's not 100% accurate, Alisa. Yes, Mormons ...That's not 100% accurate, Alisa. Yes, Mormons (not Mormans) hold an informal belief in life on other worlds, but there is little official doctrine on the subject.<br /><br />As for "faithful priesthood holding men" having their own world with lots of wives on it, well, that's more the stuff of folklore than anything else. You see a lot of that nonsense on anti-Mormon websites.Brad Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17669677047039491864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-13091631379143188612011-05-25T23:34:29.340-06:002011-05-25T23:34:29.340-06:00Hi, I was a Morman until I was 18. I was actually ...Hi, I was a Morman until I was 18. I was actually reading this article because of the link between this theory and Morman belief. Yes, Mormans actually still believe in life on other worlds. Nothing is ever said about if 'they' look like Grays or whatever but the basic belief is the following: Faithful priesthood holding men who are worthy enough will have their own world in the universe which they will populate with their many wives for all time. Essently, the highest goal of a Morman man is to become a God. Prove me wrong, this is a little known fact.Alisa_Lawson_Photographer@yahoo.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18279151567515631639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-43840985961141838352010-05-04T14:35:59.381-06:002010-05-04T14:35:59.381-06:00Tom,
I'm a little slow to respond, but what y...Tom,<br /><br />I'm a little slow to respond, but what you wrote made me curious about why Jefferson thought Jews were deists. The best I could make out was from Jefferson's letter to Waterhouse, June 26, 1822<br /><br />"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. <br /><br />1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect. <br /><br />2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments. <br /><br />3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself; is the sum of religion.<br /><br />These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews." <br /><br />and then there is the letter to Rush, April 21, 1803, which is what you are quoting from apparently,<br /><br />"1. He corrected the Deism of the Jews, confirming them in their belief of one only God, and giving them juster notions of His attributes and government.<br /><br />2. His moral doctrines, relating to kindred and friends were more pure and perfect than those of the most correct of the philosophers, and greatly more so than those of the Jews; and they went far beyond both in inculcating universal philanthropy, not only to kindred and friends, to neighbors and countrymen, but to all mankind, gathering all into one family under the bonds of love, charity, peace, common wants and common aids. A development of this head will evince the peculiar superiority of the system of Jesus over all others.<br /><br />3. The precepts of philosophy, and of the Hebrew code, laid hold of actions only. He pushed his scrutinies into the heart of man; erected his tribunal in the region of his thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountain head. <br /><br />4.He taught, emphatically, the doctrines of a future state, which was either doubted or disbelieved by the Jews, and wielded it with efficacy as an important incentive, supplementary to the other motives to moral conduct."<br /><br />Also, from that same letter, there is this,<br /><br />"II. Jews.<br /><br />1. Their system was Deism; that is, the belief in one only God. But their ideas of him and of his attributes were degrading and injurious.<br /><br />2. Their Ethics were not only imperfect, but often irreconcilable with the sound dictates of reason and morality, as they respect intercourse with those around us; and repulsive and anti-social, as respecting other nations. They needed reformation, therefore, in an eminent degree."<br /><br />I find this confusing. What's Jefferson's beef with Jews? Apparently he doesn't like the god of the OT. What Jews might consider just punishment wrought by god, Jefferson thinks this concept of god is too degrading. Jefferson seems to be big on "peace, charity and love to our fellow men". What were the "imperfect" ethics of the Jews? Jefferson doesn't say.<br /><br />It's an astonishing concept to me that one would consider Jews deists since there are immediate consequences to one's actions by the OT god. God is definitely not removing himself from the affairs of man, which I think is integral to the concept of deism.<br /><br />The other beef Jefferson seems to have with Jews is, to him, they lack a belief in the afterlife. That makes Jews deistic? Strange. <br /><br />One of the many reasons I never though of Jefferson as a deist, were statements such as, "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever" from his Notes on Virginia. The irony here is that this sounds more like the OT god than anything else. And clearly he is not talking about the afterlife here. Are countries judged in the afterlife? The thought doesn't even make sense. <br /><br />So I'm left with the feeling that Jefferson chooses words to mean whatever he wants them to mean. And if I apply his own rules to his quote about "God is just" that makes Jefferson a deist, even though to my thinking, it makes him precisely the opposite. <br /><br />Any thought to help me out here?Joe Talmadgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-2164514134499059172010-05-01T14:42:49.265-06:002010-05-01T14:42:49.265-06:00Joe, it's my opinion that Adams was an intelle...Joe, it's my <i>opinion</i> that Adams was an intellectual dilettante if not a ninny. I see no evidence in his writings that indicates he understood science anywhere near the level you give him credit for.<br /><br />As for Adams' "deism," I would say he's more of a "Unitarian Christian" than Jefferson ever was, far more a creature of his times and place, Boston around the turn of the 19th century. For instance, his view of the Jews:<br /><br /><i>It has please[d] the Providence of the ‘first Cause,’ the Universal Cause [phrases by which Adams’ defined God], that Abraham should give Religion, not only to the Hebrews but to Christians and Mahomitans, the greatest Part of the Modern civilized World."</i><br /><br />I have trouble imagining Jefferson saying something so orthodox. When Jefferson opines that Jesus corrected the deism of the Jews, he does not credit divine providence, only Jesus as a philosopher.<br /><br />Here's a bit on the prevailing "Unitarian Christianity" of Adams' time & place. I do not think Adams accepted all of it, but he was in that zone.<br /><br />http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2010/02/who-were-unitarians.htmlTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-45824486830530745822010-05-01T13:43:25.186-06:002010-05-01T13:43:25.186-06:00Interesting... I, of course, was way off on anothe...Interesting... I, of course, was way off on another interpretation, which given the context and the times couldn't possibly be true. This is probably off-topic, but if you indulge me for a moment, I'll make my point. When I read something like "temporal prejudice", I link it to a profound underpinning of physics -- the concept of point of view invariance. The equations of physics cannot depend on your point of view. In particular, there is no special point of view with respect to space and time. Look up Noether's theorem, if you want to know more. So, for example, the lack of a "temporal prejudice" leads directly to conservation of energy. The lack of a "spatial prejudice" leads to conservation of momentum. Lack of "space-time prejudice" leads to special relativity.<br /><br />I wouldn't even bring this up, but it's Adams who is referring to Newton and Herschel in the quote. Now, Emily Noether and Albert Einstein came much later than Adams, but Newton, Leibniz, Lagrange knew all about conserved quantities in physics. <br /><br />What I got out of this quote was that clearly Adams was a man of high intelligence who thought deeply about the issues of his time. Like the other founders, he was a man, sometimes flawed, sometimes insightful. <br /><br />Would it be fair to say that this part of Adams, which comes closest to outright Deism, is not in accord with what is usually thought about the man? Is it that he is writing Jefferson (who, I realize was not a Deist) or was this the thoughts of a man in his last year of life, intent on doing his best to figure it all out before the inevitable?Joe Talmadgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-64568407827238757522010-05-01T08:22:31.055-06:002010-05-01T08:22:31.055-06:00Re: "temporal"
I think Tom is on the ri...Re: "temporal"<br /><br />I think Tom is on the right track.<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporality" rel="nofollow">Temporality</a> is a term often used in philosophy in talking about the way time is. The traditional mode of temporality is a linear procession of past, present, future.<br /><br />The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_power" rel="nofollow">temporal power</a> of the [ecclesiastical authorities is their political and governmental activity as leaders of their religious establishments], as distinguished from their spiritual and pastoral activity, which [is sometimes called] eternal power, to contrast it with the Church's secular power, that is, power exercised within time rather than in eternity.<br /><br />Perhaps Adams is saying that the Europeans are too quick/willing to confuse the Church's temporal opinions/actions/power with the eternal opinions/actions/power of God.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-69713719905384552472010-04-30T22:30:10.186-06:002010-04-30T22:30:10.186-06:00Thx, Mr. Talmadge. I read "temporal" as...Thx, Mr. Talmadge. I read "temporal" as merely "the powers that be," ecclesiastical or simply religious types who would oppose scientific conclusions based on theological grounds.<br /><br />Of course, as previously noted, Adams had no scientific evidence for his belief in life on other worlds either, yet accused others of prejudice.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-75750154634383774242010-04-30T11:55:39.239-06:002010-04-30T11:55:39.239-06:00.
Notwithstanding the entire article, I'm stil....<br />Notwithstanding the entire article, I'm still stuck on "that Principle", "this boundless universe", and "this little ball".<br />.<br />First, did John Adams actually capitalize "Principle" in his original writing? If he did, then, perhaps he did use the wrong spelling. But, maybe not. ??<br />.<br />The entire quote makes me think of Thomas Paine and what he had to say about life within the universe. I have read that Paine had quite a bit of communication with most of the Founding Fathers if not all of them.<br />.<br />If we take Paine into consideration, maybe we'll get some additional takes.<br />.<br />???Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06756814849309388483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-18591350362029703812010-04-30T11:53:15.586-06:002010-04-30T11:53:15.586-06:00On a related note, the early Mormons believed quit...On a related note, the early Mormons believed quite strongly in life on other planets. Brigham Young, I believe, taught on the subject. Perhaps some of our LDS readers could provide some additional background on this point?Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1237087217187172116.post-54874875640390680922010-04-30T10:27:27.226-06:002010-04-30T10:27:27.226-06:00Thanks to all for the very interesting and intelli...Thanks to all for the very interesting and intelligent discussion. I learned a lot. <br /><br />If I can ask another question about the Adams quote, what do you think a "temporal" prejudice is?Joe Talmadgenoreply@blogger.com